With Mackey on Haman and on Babel

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Does my Interpretation of Mahabharata and Ramayana Offend Hindoos? · If Tower of Babel was a Rocket Project, Why was it Called a Tower? · If Tower of Babel was a Rocket Project - What Else Can We Expect? · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : Sin of Babel - Two Views · Φιλολoγικά/Philologica again: In case anyone missed this · Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : With Mackey on Haman and on Babel · Creation vs. Evolution : Bricks at Göbekli Tepe or Close? · How My View of Babel Ties in with "Defending Biblical Inerrancy" · Ten Keys to my Idea of Göbekli Tepe as Babel and its Tower as a Rocket

A

I

Me to Damien Mackey

2/13/2019 at 10:49 AM

Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

Et ut manifestius quod dicimus, intelligatis, Aman filius Amadathi, et animo et gente Macedo, alienusque a Persarum sanguine, et pietatem nostram sua crudelitate commaculans, peregrinus a nobis susceptus est :

Now that you may more plainly understand what we say, I Aman the son of Amadathi, a Macedonian both in mind and country, and having nothing of the Persian blood, but with his cruelty staining our goodness, was received being a stranger by us:

("I Aman the son of Amadathi," is bad translation for "Aman the son of Amadathus," the site has probably been tampered with).

Esther 16:10

II

Damien Mackey to me

2/13/2019 at 11:06 PM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

Elsewhere he is called a "Bougaean". What the hell is that?

III

Me to Damien Mackey

2/14/2019 at 11:58 AM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

A google gave this:

https://www.biblicaltraining.org/library/bougaean

And obviously other possibilities exist too.

Haydock for Esther 12:6 is here:

Ver. 6. Bugite, may refer to some town of Macedon. C. iii. 1. --- Honour. Yet he might be still more exalted, after the conspiracy was detected; (Houbig.) as the king little suspected that he was concerned in it. H. --- Death. It is thought that they wished to place Aman, or some Macedonian, on the throne. C. xvi. 12. 14. C. --- This reason for the malevolence of Aman, might be unknown to Mardochai. C. xiii. 12. Houbigant. --- The former was either a favourer of traitors, or perhaps of the same conspiracy. W.

C = Challoner, an 18th C bishop for English Catholics.

https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/untitled-524.shtml#navPoint_525

IV

Damien Mackey to me

2/14/2019 at 11:34 PM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

Haman (Aman) is king Amon of Judah.

Your Haman is probably a Boogeyman, sorry Bougaean.

V

Me to Damien Mackey

2/15/2019 at 10:20 AM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

"Josephus thinks that Esther was the queen of Artaxerxes Longimanus, who was a great friend of the Jews. D."

https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/untitled-512.shtml#navPoint_513

Which Artaxerxes was that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artaxerxes_I_of_Persia

Reign 465–424 BC

Amon of Judah

"Amon is most remembered for his idolatrous practices while king, which led to a revolt against him and eventually his assassination in c. 641 BC."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amon_of_Judah

Type of end - assassination vs execution - doesn't match.

And 641 BC was not in the reign of Artaxerxes Longimanus or Artaxerxes I.

Offense also doesn't match, idolatry being a different one from trying to annihilate Jews for not bowing down to men.

IV Kings 22 / II Paralipomenon 33 vs Book of Esther, which account is on your view garbled?

Either way, you are withdrawing "qui loquutus est per prophetas" from historical books.

VI

Damien Mackey to me

2/16/2019 at 2:32 AM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

If you'd read my Esther articles over the years you would know that it is Darius the Mede/Cyrus.

He was a friend of the Jews.

Don't confuse your Boogeyman with Longimanus or Longshanks.

VII

Me to Damien Mackey

2/16/2019 at 10:23 AM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

Saying Haman and Ahasuerus need to be contemporaries is not confusing them.

Darius the Mede is mentioned in the Book of Daniel as king of Babylon between Belshazzar and Cyrus the Great, but he is not known to history, and no additional king can be placed between the known figures of Belshazzar and Cyrus.[1] Most scholars view him as a literary fiction, but some have tried to harmonise the Book of Daniel with history by identifying him with various known figures, notably Cyrus or Ugbaru, the general who was first to enter Babylon when it fell to the Persians in 539 BCE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darius_the_Mede

One century too much difference.

VIII

Me to Damien Mackey

2/16/2019 at 10:24 AM

Re: Hello, etc? Clarification on previous

I cited the wiki for the years, not for " Most scholars view him as a literary fiction, " which I obviously don't attribute to Daniel.

IX

Damien Mackey to me

2/17/2019 at 1:58 AM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

Josephus got one right.

He said that Artaxerxes Longpants (Longimanus) was also called Cyrus.

I add that he was also Darius the Mede.

X

Me to Damien Mackey

2/17/2019 at 6:18 PM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

Possible, but even so, he is too late to have ordered killing Amon of Judah.

XI

Damien Mackey to me

2/17/2019 at 11:08 PM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

Whatever you say, H-G.

B

I

Me to Damien Mackey

2/21/2019 at 6:37 PM

palaeolithics 1 - 3

https://www.academia.edu/38355575/So-called_Paleolithic_man_was_not_dumb._Part_One_Long_cultural_tradition_of_sky_watching

"French paleo-astronomer Chantal Jegues-Wolkiewiez insists there was a long cultural tradition of skywatching among the people of the Cro-Magnon Age of Europe (30,000-10,000 BCE)."

I would say, carbon dated (this is usually the case with this kind of dates) 30 - 10 000 BC = post-Flood to about death of Noah.

Meaning the 8 on the ark were teaching some astronomy before there was any occasion to teach metallurgy in practise.

"She proposes that the famous cave paintings of Lascaux in France record the constellations of a prehistoric version of the zodiac which included solstice points and major stars. Her theory is based on the discovery of numerous dots and tracings superimposed on the paintings of bulls, aurochs and horses on the walls of Lascaux. She claims these correspond to the patterns of constellations – most notably the constellations ofTaurusand Pleiades and the stars Aldeberan and Antares. She proposes most of the constellations are represented by paintings of animals, accurately depicting their coloring and coats during the corresponding seasons of the year."

Very probable.

That was the good part.

Now for two bad parts:

https://creation.com/a-better-model-for-the-stone-age

Osgood thought Acheulian and Mousterian Canaanean. I think them pre-Flood. I obviously also think Aurignacian is from before Noah died, as per previous remark. And post-Flood.

More directly you, since you might not share this error by Osgood : comparison to "palaeolithic" populations today.

I think some of the remaining palaeolithics were shirking the building of Babel (however, aboriginal Australians share a symbol found on Göbekli Tepe, the horizontal oval with an inner field divided in three, if I recall details correctly, and Polynesians share the birdman motive with GT).

But once they were away from Nimrod, they could have started developing agriculture, they didn't. Bad move. Cultural heresy, if you want.

The one good thing, if ever the Church is saved in what is even now a wilderness, if people like they are around, they may greatly help survival chances. Anyway, either way, identity of material tools (on a very rough approximation at least) does not mean identity of overall culture. Therefore, however stupid a modern palaeolithic were in some respect, it wouldn't stop the early palaeolithics from being much smarter than we and simply separated from a pre-Flood culture buried under mud, probably as high as Mount Everest.

However, I am not into stamping modern palaeolithics as dumb, and I appreciate your Ehrenrettung!

https://www.academia.edu/38355624/So-called_Paleolithic_man_was_not_dumb._Part_Two_Australian_Aboriginal_Astronomy

https://www.academia.edu/38373387/So-called_Paleolithic_man_was_not_dumb._Part_Three_Skilled_Aboriginal_encoding_of_knowledge

The last piece, btw, is a great clue how history from Genesis 2-11 was preserved, before Abraham got a beduin tribe which could start stocking written records./HGL

II

Damien Mackey to me

2/21/2019 at 11:12 PM

Re: palaeolithics 1 - 3

"... aboriginal Australians share a symbol found on Göbekli Tepe, the horizontal oval with an inner field divided in three, if I recall details correctly, and Polynesians share the birdman motive with GT".

Now that I find interesting.

III

Me to Damien Mackey

2/22/2019 at 6:13 PM

Re: palaeolithics 1 - 3

http://ancientnews.net/2017/10/13/a-global-aboriginal-australian-culture-the-proof-at-gobekli-tepe/

For birdman, the funny thing is, it's more visible on pinterest than on the article it links to.

http://beforeitsnews.com/v3/blogging-citizen-journalism/2013/2448608.html

https://www.pinterest.fr/pin/392728029989417289/

IV

Me to Damien Mackey

2/22/2019 at 7:10 PM

palaeolitics 4

I saw you found it already ....

https://www.academia.edu/38411076/So-called_Paleolithic_man_was_not_dumb._Part_Four_Australian_Aboriginal_link_to_G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

How do you feel about Göbekli Tepe = Babel?

V

Damien Mackey to me

2/23/2019 at 1:00 AM

Re: palaeolitics 4

I feel nothing about it.

Isaiah (Septuagint) clearly locates the Tower in the vicinity of Calneh and Carchemish. The true land of Shinar (as opposed to Sumer), as I believe.

G.T. in Turkey is none of these.

VI

Me to Damien Mackey

2/23/2019 at 10:10 AM

Re: palaeolitics 4

Vicinity?

Not quite.

And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar

But if land of Shinar is all of Mesopotamia, which is very arguable, then easternmost parts of Turkey (where GT is) belong to it.

If "vicinity" is based on another verse, tell me which one.

[I had missed he mentioned Isaiah, and he did not respond about which other verse by citing Isaiah in LXX, however, his main point is geography of Carchemish.]

VII

Me to Damien Mackey

2/23/2019 at 10:15

Sumer / Shinar the connection

I'd consider Sumer is a Sumerian form of Shinar and means Sumerians were originally claiming some kind of superiority over northern neighbours, all over Shinar.

A bit like USA being called "America" has stuck despite Argentina or Chile or Newfoundland clearly being in Americas* but outside US.

Or like a very big island and a somewhat smaller one called Tasmania or van Diemen's land have taken the name "Australia" formerly equivalent to Oceania and meaning lands (that is islands) all over South (hence Australia) Pacific Ocean (hence Oceania).

It is extremely possible that Sumerian was originally one of the 72 languages originating way further NW in Shinar, that is in Göbekli Tepe./HGL

* One could arguably only defend the plural after Panama canal.

VIII

Me to Damien Mackey

2/23/2019 at 10:50 AM

vicinity, bis

36°49′47″N 38°00′54″E Carchemish (funny Greeks and Latins call the site Europus)
37°13′23″N 38°55′21″E Göbekli Tepe
1°36'24" N/S 0°54'27" E/W

48°51'24"N (Paris N/S)
-1°36'24"
47°15'N

Nantes 47°13′05″N 1°33′10″W
Montsoreau 47°13′02″N 0°03′28″E
Bourges 47°05′04″N 2°23′47″E

48°51'24"N (Paris for comparison, again)
+1°36'24"
49°87'48"
50°27'48"N

Lille 50°37′40″N 3°03′30″E
Charleroi 50°24′N 04°26′E

2°21'03"E (Paris E/W)
0°54'27"
2°75'30"
3°15'30"E

Montescourt-Lizerolles 49°44′21″N 3°15′30″

2°21'03"E (Paris E/W)
1°80'63"E
0°54'27"
1°26'36"E

Saumur 47° 15′ 36″ nord, 0° 04′ 37″ ouest
Villebernier 47° 15′ 14″ nord, 0° 01′ 46″ ouest
Besançon 47° 14′ 35″ nord, 6° 01′ 19″ est
Auxerre 47° 47′ 55″ nord, 3° 34′ 02″ est

I think Auxerre is about as far from Paris as Carchemish from GÖbekli Tepe.

169.3 km, with me walking 15 km per day, that would be 11 full days march and arriving on day 12.

In order NOT to have Carchemish close to Göbekli Tepe, you would need to think in terms of very small "empires."

IX

Me to Damien Mackey

2/23/2019 at 12:55 PM

identity of Sennaar

"I turned next back to Göbekli Tepe and Harran. The sites are apparently intervisible, just over 40 km apart. The difference in latitude from Harran to Göbekli Tepe equals precisely 1/1,000 of earth's circumference. This is where we enter a twilight zone in ancient astronomy. Of course, the opposite metaphor—"the dawn" of ancient astronomy, is the proper one regarding the implication. Göbekli Tepe features the oldest known room aligned north-south, evidence of astronomy in practice."

http://jqjacobs.net/blog/gobekli_tepe.html

Note, Harran is exactly border of Turkey-Syria, and GT is NW corner, Harran middle of a great plain, which is however limited by surrounding hill country to mountain country, and which, as between Euphrates and Tigris, is in Shinar=Mesopotamia.

"And the beginning of his kingdom was Babylon, and Arach, and Achad, and Chalanne in the land of Sennaar."
[Genesis 10:10] LXX has 10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babylon, and Orech, and Archad, and Chalanne, in the land of Senaar.

"And when they removed from the east, they found a plain in the land of Sennaar, and dwelt in it."
[Genesis 11:2] LXX has 2 And it came to pass as they moved from the east, they found a plain in the land of Senaar, and they dwelt there.

"And it came to pass at that time, that Amraphel king of Sennaar, and Arioch king of Pontus, and Chodorlahomor king of the Elamites, and Thadal king of nations,"
[Genesis 14:1] LXX has 14:1 And it came to pass in the reign of Amarphal king of Sennaar, and Arioch king of Ellasar, that Chodollogomor king of Elam, and Thargal king of nations,

"To wit, against Chodorlahomor king of the Elamites, and Thadal king of nations, and Amraphel king of Sennaar, and Arioch king of Pontus: four kings against five."
[Genesis 14:9] LXX has 9 against Chodollogomor king of Elam, and Thargal king of nations, and Amarphal king of Sennaar, and Arioch king of Ellasar, the four kings against the five.

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand the second time to possess the remnant of his people, which shall be left from the Assyrians, and from Egypt, and from Phetros, and from Ethiopia, and from Elam, and from Sennaar, and from Emath, and from the islands of the sea."
[Isaias (Isaiah) 11:11] LXX has 11 And it shall be in that day, [that] the Lord shall again shew his hand, to be zealous for the remnant that is left of the people, which shall be left by the Assyrians, and [that] from Egypt, and from the country of Babylon, and from Ethiopia, and from the Elamites, and from the rising of the sun, and out of Arabia.

"And the Lord delivered into his hands Joakim the king of Juda, and part of the vessels of the house of God: and he carried them away into the land of Sennaar, to the house of his god, and the vessels he brought into the treasure house of his god."
[Daniel 1:2] LXX has 2 And the Lord gave into his hand Joakim king of Juda, and part of the vessels of the house of God: and he brought them into the land of Sennaar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure-house of his god.

"And he said to me: That a house may be built for it in the land of Sennaar, and that it may be established, and set there upon its own basis."
[Zacharias (Zechariah) 5:11] LXX has 11 And he said to me, To build it a house in the land of Babylon, and to prepare [a place for it]; and they shall set it there on its own base.

So, is Sennaar Sinjar, in Syria? Or is it Babylon, as per two translations in LXX and one context equation either text? Or is it both, as per both are between Euphrates and Tigris?

In this latter case, Göbekli Tepe is in Sennaar. Not outside.

And unlike the plain around the historic city Babylon, the plain near GT can be found, since it is delimited within a hill country.

The plain around historic Babylon cannot be found in the land, it is the land of Sennaar which can be found in that plain. Ergo, the plain around Harran with GT in a corner is a better match.

It is also a fact that you find the plain first, as you pass from the East from Mount Judi (in the mountainS of Ararat) to Göbekli Tepe. Mount Judi is in Cizre, Göbekli Tepe is near Şanlıurfa, a map between the two shows:



And both are within Shinar.

X

Damien Mackey to me

2/24/2019 at 3:04 AM

Re: vicinity, bis

You might find that Babel is actually in Paris.

Dan Brown would be interested to know that.

XI

Me to Damien Mackey

2/25/2019 at 11:32 AM

Re: vicinity, bis

You might find out that maths have applications .... I was comparing distance from Göbekli Tepe to Carchemish to distance from Paris to Auxerre.

Now, Paris and Auxerre are in same post-Babel (not immediately post-Babel, though) nation, France.

Therefore Carchemish and GT can have been so too.

XII

Damien Mackey to me

2/25/2019 at 11:20 PM

Re: vicinity, bis

Why do you want Gobbling Turkey (GT) to be Babel?

Where are the remnants of the Tower? - that would be a good start.

XIII

Me to Damien Mackey

2/26/2019 at 1:05 PM

Re: vicinity, bis

"Why do you want Gobbling Turkey (GT) to be Babel?"

• 1) Fits geographically, as in Mesopotamia
• 2) Fits geographically, as that part of Mesopotamia allows you to actively FIND a plain (the one stretching SE of GT)
• 3) Fits geographically, supposing Ark landed on Mount Judi, since that would imply removing precisely from the East
• 4) Fits geographically, since close to Carchemish (which you consider as Calneh).
• 5) Fits linguistically, since showing no written remains of a non-Hebrew language.
• 6) Fits temporally and linguistically, as all written records of non-Hebrew languages are posterior to it.
• 7) Fits temporally in carbon dating, since between démise of Neanderthals (my carbon date for Flood, 2957 BC) and the Chalcolithic (my carbon date for Genesis 14, 1935 BC).
• 8) Fits culturally, as cultural influences could have spread from there to anywhere (see Australian symbol, see bird man).
• 9) Fits culturally with Nimrod, as skulls perforated in vortex and persumably tied around a rope vertically have been found, which would be Nimrod's threat on how to deal with shirkers.

"Where are the remnants of the Tower? - that would be a good start."

• 1) Weaker alternative would be : Harran. However, it seems the carbon dates don't fit.
• 2) Stronger alternative : it left no remains, since it was no building.
  
  Or better : it left no material remains. It left cultural ones, climaxing at Cape Canaveral and Bajkonur. Nimrod wanted a rocket. He didn't get one in his lifetime, but he got quite a few with some millennia of delay.

Do you want to start pointing out problems, or shall I deal with the already known ones?

• 1) Culture wasn't sufficiently advanced? With no written remains, which means one cannot pronounce negatively against pieces of culture not being shown in remains. Later culture didn't show such an advance? Technology loss. Both actively mastered and only projected technologies can be lost.
• 2) If a rocket, why did Moses say "Tower" and not "Rocket"? Any invention is called after sth already existing, and "rocket" is called after firework rockets, usually, and these are called for different things, in English, German and Scandinavian languages an Italian word for bobbin is used, in French a word for sword hilt, in Greek fire-flute, in Chinese fire-arrow. What would you chose if you were dealing with a space rocket first? Tower would be on the list. Plus Moses would have not tried to enhance knowledge about lost technology.
• 3) If a rocket, what for? To make a name for oneself (see Bible) and to get into Heaven (see Bible) on the top floor of the tower (a k a last step of the rocket).

Perks with the idea?

• 1) A very pertinent answer to "if God took offense at a skyscraper, why did He allow rockets?" It was a rocket He stopped and later eventually also allowed. Difference is, now rocket engineers are not a drafted humanity, but a minority.
• 2) Ziggurats from Mesopotamia are all of them too recent, after there was a Sumerian language, therefore post-Babel.
• 3) If Nimrod, knowing the pre-Flood lore later formalised as Mahabharata (and it seems to have originally included warlike use of Uranium) was trying to use Uranium for rocket fuel, his rocket would have been a major safety hazard if he had gone through with project, meaning the theory if true means Nimrod was a bungler and God was stopping a major disaster from happening. Also, the safe rocket fuel now used is H2 + O2, the reaction gives water, and this contains an allegory on us needing "water" (baptism) to get to Heaven.
• 4) The remains are cultural ones : China men inventing firework rockets, Greeks and Amerindians dreaming of heros and diverse others thrown up into the stars. And, closer at hand, stone circles and ziggurats to get a better grasp on astronomy, if Nimrod too the defeat as a sign from God he was a bit off in astronomy (which he was if he hoped getting past planets and stars to God's abode before rocket became unbreathable and unable to sustain human life as to water and nutrition).

I actually forgot one of the "fits" (just waiting for your pun) : the post-Flood recovery of agriculture is starting "about a millennium" before GT (carbon date wise), and the area is North Syria with East Turkey. This fit is both temporal and geographic and cultural. Before you can start either an empire or a rocket project (however failed it might be) you need a basis in food supply.

https://filolohika.blogspot.com/2016/02/letter-of-ex-oriente-i-preliminary-to.html

http://filolohika.blogspot.com/2016/02/letter-of-ex-oriente-ii-continuing.html

http://filolohika.blogspot.com/2016/02/letter-of-ex-oriente-iii-explanation.html

http://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2016/11/advantages-of-shorter-carbon-14.html

Akarçay noted in agricultural part is in the province of Şanlıurfa which is also where GT is, and 'Ain Jammam is at the other end of Syria or Iraq, since close to Saudi Arabia:

‘Ain al-Jammam is situated high on a ridge overlooking the Hisma plateau that extends into Saudi Arabia. The site consists of two distinct sites: a Byzantine farmstead and a Neolithic village.

http://moses.creighton.edu/vr/Jammam/site.html

That's how vast Nimrod's empire was.