With Steven Taylor on Lorentz Transformations, Speed of Light, Distant Starlight Problem, Creation Week, Miracles

Creation vs. Evolution : Responding to Dystopian Science · Part II of Dystopian Science, my answer part A · Part II, part B - CMI on Deeper Waters · HGL's F.B. writings : Carter's Tactics · Back to Creation vs. Evolution : Part III : On Bradley and Bessel · New blog on the kid : Do Lorentz Transformations Prove a Universal Inconditional Speed Limit? · Back to Creation vs. Evolution : John Hartnett Pleads Operational Science · Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : With Steven Taylor on Lorentz Transformations, Speed of Light, Distant Starlight Problem, Creation Week, Miracles

I

Me to Steve Taylor

4/11/2019 at 12:28 PM

You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

Here is the deal.

I am Young Earth Creationist. Back in 2001, August 23, I came across the Distant Starlight Problem.

As you know, soh-cah-toa or trigonometry gives an answer about distance only when there is a distance given in the question.

For a Heliocentric, that distance is Earth to Earth. The problem with that distance is - of Earth stands still, we would know the distance from Sun to Sun (along the zodiac = E to E on Heliocentric view), but we would not know that the distance star to star equals S to S.

So, since August 24 2001, I am Geocentric, takes neatly care of the Distant Starlight problem.

Now, if the stars are one light day away (and there are even so very good reasons why they cannot be just 8 light minutes away, unless you count S as a star rather than as a planet), they are each day performing a circle with the radius 1 ld, the diameter 2 ld and the circumference 6.28 ... light days.

This means, they are going 6.28 ... times faster than the speed of light.

Here is where you come in.

I came across this video:

The Speed of Light is NOT About Light
PBS Space Time | 7.X.2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msVuCEs8Ydo

And I made this comment, basically on what it was saying:

New blog on the kid : Do Lorentz Transformations Prove a Universal Inconditional Speed Limit?
https://nov9blogg9.blogspot.com/2019/04/do-lorentz-transformations-prove.html

As you are into electronics, you would know much more about Lorentz transformations than I do, and that means, if you can at one go refute one or more of my solutions, right off the bat, do so.

Rest assured that your answer or answers (if I reply) won't be wasted, I intend to post the correspondence to this blog:

Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : If you wish to correspond with me
https://correspondentia-ioannis-georgii.blogspot.com/p/if-you-wish-to-correspond-with-me.html

Have a great day and looking forward to hearing from you soon!
Hans Georg Lundahl

II

Steve Taylor to me

4/12/2019 at 8:07 AM

Re: You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

Hello
I’ve just left the UK for a week. Will look at this when I return. In the meantime can you say whether you believe the days of Genesis 1 to be 24 hours in duration?
Regards
Steve Taylor

Sent from my iPhone

III

Me to Steve Taylor

4/12/2019 at 10:15 AM

Re: You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

" In the meantime can you say whether you believe the days of Genesis 1 to be 24 hours in duration? "

Roughly speaking definitely, with a possible hesitation on whether the days in Henochs day and up to Flood were a few minutes longer, so that solar year of same length then was 364 and now is 365.2425 days.

Exactly 24 hours, well, with above reservation, plus day 1 could be some hours shorter. Did light appear at 6am or 9am? Was the world created a few minutes before, or was it created 6pm Saturday evening in modern terms?

This means, for star light to arrive to Earth on day five, when birds were created, without starlight created in transit or even more exotic stuff, the stars created on day four would have been at least then one light day and no more above.

Now they could be somewhat further away and that would mean their local movement around us each stellar day is more than 6.28 times the speed of light, which is what brings us to the questions on the Lorentz transformations, as mentioned.

Have a pleasant journey whereever you went!
Hans Georg Lundahl

IV

Steve Taylor to me

5/23/2019 at 12:58 PM

Re: You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

Dear Hans-Georg,

Firstly, apologies for taking so long to get back to you. I do not think I have the time to enter a long correspondence, but I would like to make two points:

• 1) I am interested in your response to the case made against geocentrism by Carter and Sarfati:
  
  Why the Universe does not revolve around the Earth
  Refuting absolute geocentrism
  by Robert Carter and Jonathan Sarfati
  Published 12 February 2015; last update 24 April 2019
  https://creation.com/refuting-absolute-geocentrism
  
  
• 2) In Genesis 1 we are in the territory of the miraculous. The Bible on its first page is inviting us to believe in an omnipotent, benevolent, eternal, creator God who calls things into being from nothing by His Word. If this is true then for the creation week the commonly accepted laws of Physics based on our current observations do not apply: they are contravened each time God speaks and creates ex-nihilo or fashions miraculously. Arguments based on the application of physical laws and measurements that we now observe may therefore be invalid because the such laws do not apply to miraculous situations.

Yours sincerely
Steve Taylor

V

Me to Steve Taylor

5/23/2019 at 2:16 PM

Re: You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

Better late than never!

• 1) I already answered it here:
  
  New blog on the kid : And CMI also felt a need to "refute Geocentrism" ...
  http://nov9blogg9.blogspot.com/2015/02/and-cmi-also-felt-need-to-refute.html
  
  
• 2) "If this is true"
  
  It is.
  
  "then for the creation week the commonly accepted laws of Physics based on our current observations do not apply:"
  
  False, each starts to apply as soon as God puts it in place, as with laws of biology.
  
  "they are contravened each time God speaks and creates ex-nihilo or fashions miraculously."
  
  Also false, miracles do not contravene what natural laws state about outcomes of such and such a causality, they only provide causalities not provided themselves as outcomes by natural laws.
  
  "Arguments based on the application of physical laws and measurements that we now observe may therefore be invalid because the such laws do not apply to miraculous situations."
  
  Distant starlight paradox actually does not just apply to Creation week, but continues to apply.
  
  Suppose we see a nova that is supposed to be 100 000 light years away, and we have a problem now, not just back in creation week : why would a light source shine light to us in a maximum of 7500 years (or whatever the Biblical age of Heaven and Earth) if that light should take 100 000 years?
  
  Hence, my observation, it shouldn't.
  
  However, while I am accepting speed of light as observed for the journey of light, I am also allowing each body to rotate with the aether (note that it would only be disproven by Michelson Morley in a non-geocentric setting) at what is locally if not vectorially a speed higher than that of light.
  
  My rationale is, speed of light applies to light spreading through aether, not to aether itself or anything (including fix stars).
  
  Hence my question to you about Lorentz Transformations.

Sincerly,
Hans Georg Lundahl

Branching out

branches a and b will deal with different things, but came simultaneously on each exchange, or nearly so. Steve waited and skipped one occasion on the one branch, so like VIII a is not simultaneous with VIII b, but with X b.

Branch a)

VI a

Steve Taylor to me

5/23/2019 at 4:27 PM

RE: You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

<<"then for the creation week the commonly accepted laws of Physics based on our current observations do not apply:">>

False, each starts to apply as soon as God puts it in place, as with laws of biology.

So not completely false then ?

VII a

Me to Steve Taylor

5/24/2019 at 1:18 PM

Re: RE: You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

Speed of light did not apply when darkness was on the face of the deep, but started applying when God created visible light.

Rotation of universe (inside the sphere of God's throne room) around around Earth started applying at least for light source from when God separated night and day.

Probably "firmament" created next day is a rotating and limited sphere of aether, moving around earth and its daily movement (full circle 23 h 55 min or so) started applying from when it was created.

Luminaries having a movement west along the aether and their own movement east (except fix stars) around zodiac started applying from day 4.

Biogenesis of plants started applying on day 3, of fish and birds on day 5, of beasts of earth and of men on day 6.

Your statement again:

<<"then for the creation week the commonly accepted laws of Physics based on our current observations do not apply:">>

= Each and all only start applying after creation week, when God withdraws the miraculous stuff.

That is how I read your statement and that is what I call false.

VIII a

Steve Taylor to me

5/24/2019 at 1:33 PM

Re: You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

Your idea that the normal laws of physics (whatever they are) kick in as soon as an entity is created is plausible. (I am not sure you are right but don’t say that you are wrong).

My issue is, for example, with the laws of thermodynamics.

Considering the Universe as a closed physical system I cannot see how conservation of mass and energy can apply at all until after day 6 when creative activity ceases ( can you?).

If the first law of thermodynamics is not in operation, we are not in a ‘normal’ physical system or situation. Consequently great caution (at least) is needed in invoking or applying other physical laws if fundamental ones are not in operation (at least for those periods of creative activity).

This is why I am cautious of entering the argument with the assumption that we can use the physics and chemistry that we teach at University in 2019 and which may superseded anyway if mankind is still here in 100 years time….

IX a

Me to Steve Taylor

5/24/2019 at 1:55 PM

Re: You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

" conservation of mass and energy "

Do NOT apply the way you think, the universe has not been a closed physical system ever, but always open to God, angels, devils, human souls, and it is doubtful to claim even animal souls (not image of God, not immortal) are fully physical.

They probably DO apply to real physical closed systems though - if any. Anywhere.

I meant things like speed of light where and however it applies, Ohm's law, Watt's law, Coulombe's law, etc. Aristotle's, Newton's or Einstein's version of gravity, whichever be true.

In other words, clearly observed regularities.

Branch b)

VI b

Steve Taylor to me

5/23/2019 at 4:30 PM

RE: You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

"they are contravened each time God speaks and creates ex-nihilo or fashions miraculously."

Also false, miracles do not contravene what natural laws state about outcomes of such and such a causality, they only provide causalities not provided themselves as outcomes by natural laws.

Let me understand your position here.

Are you saying that when the Lord Jesus Christ walked upon the sea of Galilee the natural law that we term the law of gravitational attraction applied or not?

VII b

Me to Steve Taylor

5/24/2019 at 1:12 PM

Re: RE: You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

Gravitation applied to all natural non-glorious bodies.

One explanation is, the properties of the glorious resurrection body were displayed in advance of resurrection, and the non-glorious everyday appearance was a result of His miraculously inhibiting those properties.

Subtlety (walking through walls / Virgin birth)
Brightness (appearance to Saul / on mount Tabor)
Lightness (ascending to Heaven / walking on water).

Another explanation, less likely to me, is, God provided a causality which was stronger than gravitation.

You are aware gravitation applies when a soccer ball is kicked across the football field, just that the propulsion from the kick applies even more?

You are aware gravitation applies when your pen lies on the table, even if it is 6000 km and some more above centre of Earth, just stabilities of table, floor, ground, tektonic plates and mantle apply even more?

There you have it, God's omnipotence / properties of glorious bodies, whichever, apply even more.

VIII b

Steve Taylor to me

5/24/2019 at 1:18 PM

Re: You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

<< Gravitation applied to all natural non-glorious bodies.>>

• (i) The body of the Lord Jesus Christ was a fully human body
  
  
• (ii) Peter also walked on water (Matthew 14:29)

It seems to me that gravitation did not apply in these two miraculous situations

IX b

Me to Steve Taylor

5/24/2019 at 1:23 PM

Re: You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

• i) the glorious resurrection body is a fully human body, identic in identity but changed in qualities in relation to the human body
• ii) St Peter had a foretaste of his resurrection.

So, gravity did apply and gloriousness of bodies (fully there, though hidden in Jesus, partially there by foretaste in St Peter) applied even more.

X b

Steve Taylor to me

5/24/2019 at 1:39 PM

Re: You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

<< i) the glorious resurrection body is a fully human body, identic in identity but changed in qualities in relation to the human body>>

Pls read 1 Corinthians 15 – the resurrection body is said to be a ‘spiritual body’. Personality is preserved but its properties are altered. It is not subject to death for example

<

This is speculation on your part. You have no way of knowing what you say is true

XI b

Me to Steve Taylor

5/24/2019 at 2:06 PM

Re: You might be the right guy to give an indepth answer on Lorentz transformations

1 Cor 15 says nothing of resurrection body being non-identic, it only states it is changed, i e non-similar on some points.

It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption. [43] It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power. [44] It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: [45] The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.

It ... it = both it in each pair refer to same object, i e same body. The resurrection body of Christ was identic to his pre-Crucifixion body, since He showed the wounds acquired in the Crucifixion. It had other properties, but was not another body.

" This is speculation on your part "

On Our Lord's body prior to Crucifixion, it is sound Catholic theology, not personal speculation. I know it is true, even if you don't (as a non-Catholic), and that latter is why I gave an alternative in God's omnipotence, and the general relation between natural and omnipotent causation in miraculous events is the one outlined by C. S. Lewis in the book Miracles.

The only thing which is speculation on my part (unless it's half-memory) is St Peter having a foretaste of his resurrection.

But Moses had, since his face was shining, other property of resurrection bodies, so it seems reasonable.

And the shining part, shown to St Paul and on Patmos to St John was also hidden most events after Resurrection. This being Biblical support of the Catholic doctrine (probably inferior in certainty than dogma, but still doctrine) that Christ was hiding the resurrection properties of His Body prior to Resurrection.

Other Biblical support : "I am the resurrection and the life" said before raising of St Lazarus the Four Days Dead, i e before He rose Himself. Applies a bit better if His Body already had resurrection properties, through hypostatic union, and they were hidden, than if He was still waiting for them. But we are waiting for them.

Med Yvonne Maria Werner ang. hennes raderande

HGL's F.B. writings : YMW länkade till Åkesons dumhet · På Svenska og på Dansk på Antimodernism : Brukade ha fler läsare i Ryssland och Ukraina än i Sverige · Hans Georg Lundahls Correspondence : Med Yvonne Maria Werner ang. hennes raderande

16 avr 2019 à 19:43

I

Jag till YMW

Hvad anser du om denna censur?

Nästa meddelande kommer en länk - om den kommer fram.

Men i länken ger jag vissa besked om FB's censur:

II

Jag till YMW

Gick ej.

Googla HGL's F.B. writings med FB Censors Links

Notera

ofvan var ett tag sedan, 16:e april. Det är skildt från nedan, med början igår.

dim 17:24

III

Jag till YMW

Här är den débat från en tid sedan, har äfven frågat Marie Louise om den personliga détaillen skall med.

HGL's F.B. writings : YMW länkade till Åkesons dumhet
https://hglsfbwritings.blogspot.com/2019/05/ymw-lankade-till-akesons-dumhet.html

dim 18:44

IV

YMW till mig

Vad menar du med att FB idkar censur i det här aktuella fallet?

idag

09:55

V

Jag till YMW

Jag vet intet hvar du menar att jag skulle ha sagt att FB gjorde det.

Tänkte du på:

"Ngn verkade sudda ut den synpuncten?"

Jag vet intet om det var du (din mur), FB, eller stället der jag hade tillgång till internet, men ngn suddade ut mina länkar till wiki-artiklar om hennes famille, m a o, med de menniskor hon har i den har hon PR "i blodet".

Jag anser att det var relevant i förh. till att ngn talade om PR-bureauer.

Jag hade äfven nämnt att en hel del vi anse som sjelfklart ärligt, t ex C S Ls författare-carrière, började med goda PR-campagner, t ex hans förläggare till ngn af böckerna från krigstiden satte annoncen för hans bok rakt under en dyrare annonce för en generals bok om militära dryftemål på strategisk niveau, så att en hel del patrioter som intet hade råd med den kunde se honom som ett billigare alternativ (han höll uppenbarligen krigsmoralen uppe, annars hade han intet haft "radio talks" på radion) och dermed lockas att köpa honom.

Äfven detta bevis på ett allmänt behof af god PR (belagdt i mina tittar i Times, via microfilm på Georges Pompidou) suddades ut.

Och äfven detta är relevant, ur synpuncten om hon nu hade god draghjelp af en PR-bureau, so what? Hvem har intet det (om man lyckas komma fram ur media-skuggan)?

Om du menade tidigare [se ofvan, verkar så], verkar det ha slutat nu.

VI

YMW till mig

Jag tog bort dessa inlägg, eftersom de innehöll otillbörliga angrepp på andra debattörer - och jag brukar också ta bort de av dina inlägg på min FB-sida som jag ser som inadekvata eller upprepande.

VII

Jag till YMW

Jag anser intet att jag angrep ngn i person, bara till otillbörliga argumenter.

Och som jag nu sade, mitt ordval var "Ngn verkade sudda ut den synpuncten?" och angrep intet FB eller ngn annan.

"som jag ser som inadekvata"

Tack för den du, jag är intet din seminarist.

" eller upprepande."

Vissa behöfva höra ett och annat 2 ggr innan myntet trillar ned.

VIII

YMW till mig

Det faktum att du använder ett eget stavsätt gör att dina inlägg ofta är närmast obegripliga och ofta också gör ett galet intryck. Längre inlägg av detta slag raderar jag konsekvent, eftersom de avhåller andra från att ge sig in i debatten. Om du inte kan använda gängse svenskt skriftspråk, är det bättre att du skriver på något annat språk, där du håller dig till gängse regelverk!

12:34

IX

Jag till YMW

"Det faktum att du använder ett eget stavsätt"

Bojkottar stafningsreformerna 1870-tal, 1906, 1950.

Caesar non supra grammaticam. (1906, 1950)
Caesar supra grammaticos.
Ergo, grammatici non supra grammaticam. (1870-tal, amerikanska reformer)

"gör att dina inlägg ofta är närmast obegripliga"

För en bildad svenska som förmodats ha öppnat en bok från 1800-talet?

Det fans tonåringar på helgon-net som hade noll problem med min stafning, medan "Nicolas Flamel" (sv-k "prest" -> anglic. "prest") och hans vän David Heith-Stade (som jag betraktar som en personlig fiende) häfdade den dyngan.

"och ofta också gör ett galet intryck."

På hvem?

"Längre inlägg av detta slag raderar jag konsekvent, eftersom de avhåller andra från att ge sig in i debatten."

Hvilka andra? Folk som Stade?

Folk som "Flamel" (vet ej hans verkliga namn)?

"Om du inte kan använda gängse svenskt skriftspråk,"

Kan resp. vill. Jag vill verkligen intet sälla mig till barbarerna som vilja afskära 1900-talets sednare hälft från så nyliga tider som Upplysningstiden.

"är det bättre att du skriver på något annat språk, där du håller dig till gängse regelverk!"

Amerikaner häfda (för att jag likaså bojkottar Noah Webster's "center", "color" 1806, och "color labeled ax" hundraårsjubileet, 1906) detsamma om min engelska. Gängse engelsk som i brittisk stafning är jemngammal med min svenska.

Det är barockt att ha en situation i ett europeiskt språk der 150 år gamla texter skola klassas som "obegripliga" p g a parlamentarisk (1950) eller äfven kunglig (1906) vandalism.

Och om en text från 1869 och en vanlig text från 2019 äro begripliga, torde äfven en text som ligger deremellan, d v s min, vara begriplig.

X

YMW till mig

Mitt stavsätt ligger inom ramen för tillåtna variationer. Ditt utgör ett eget påhitt, en blandning mellan äldre former och egna tillägg, vilket gör dina inlägg mer eller mindre obegripliga.

XI

Jag till YMW

"Mitt stavsätt ligger inom ramen för tillåtna variationer."

Tillåtna efter 1950? En regering med riksdag kunna olagliggöra bruket af tidigare gängse former?

Synsättet är totalitärt.

"Ditt utgör ett eget påhitt,"

Det var "Flamels" lögn, bortsedt från att han factiskt talade om mitt språk (globalt), blandande ett talspråk från vår tid med en skriftspråksdrägt från anno dazumal.

Om min stafning (punctuelt) är det en lögn.

"en blandning mellan äldre former"

Nej, en conseqventast möjliga bojkott af vissa reformer.

"och egna tillägg,"

Exempel?

"vilket gör dina inlägg mer eller mindre obegripliga."

Som sagdt, tonåringar och tjugisar på helgon net voro mindre handicappade.

Deremot har google translate svårt att "öfversätta" det till ryska och ukrainska, eftersom dess algorithm baseras på svenska FN-texter mest efter 1950.

Det kanske är der skon verkligen klämmer.

(Och ja, af ngn anledning har jag fler läsare der än i Sverige)

Rättare, hade:

På Svenska og på Dansk på Antimodernism : Brukade ha fler läsare i Ryssland och Ukraina än i Sverige
https://danskantimodernism.blogspot.com/2019/05/brukade-ha-fler-lasare-i-ryssland-och.html

With Tim Stables from Catholic Answers, on Noah

11/03/2016 19:54

I

Me to Tim Staples

Sound off when watching this video:

How do we know Adam and Eve existed?
Catholic Answers | 10.III.2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8N3uL_6NKM

Is your answer that of Haydock?

Concerning the transactions of these early times, parents would no doubt be careful to instruct their children, by word of mouth, before any of the Scriptures were written; and Moses might derive much information from the same source, as a very few persons formed the chain of tradition, when they lived so many hundred years. Adam would converse with Mathusalem, who knew Sem, as the latter lived in the days of Abram. Isaac, Joseph, and Amram, the father of Moses, were contemporaries: so that seven persons might keep up the memory of things which had happened 2500 years before. But to entitle these accounts to absolute authority, the inspiration of God intervenes; and thus we are convinced, that no word of sacred writers can be questioned. (Haydock)

06/02/2017 18:22

II

Me to Tim Staples

Here I was again sound off ...

were you doubting Noah was a real person here ? :

VIDEO: Was Noah a Real Person? with Tim Staples
Catholic Answers on FB
https://www.facebook.com/catholicanswers/videos/10154771358191006/

III

dito, but:

Ce message a été supprimé car il contient un lien qui est contraire à nos Standards de la communauté.

11 mai 2019 à 03:18

IV

Tim Staples to me

No. Noah was and is a real person.

Vous pouvez maintenant vous appeler et voir les informations concernant le statut En ligne et la lecture des messages.

11 mai 2019 à 13:38

V

Me to Tim Staples

OK, where and when do you consider his Flood occurred?

(btw, it seems one link is being censored - did you see it before it was too late, I even forgot what link it was).

Oh, one more : when does this seem to be to archaeologists?

15 mai 2019 à 09:59

I mean, I suppose you gave the matter some thought and were not just trying to assuage me?

Would you for instance agree Noah lived from 600 before to 350 after 2957 BC?

mer 22:16

VI

Tim Staples to me

We don't know when Noah lived. It is not revealed in Scripture. The genealogies are not strictly literal. And I don't believe the flood was necessarily universal in nature. That is, it did not necessarily cover what is now North America. It would have been an enormous flood that would have covered the "world" as Noah understood it.

jeu 13:34

VII

Me to Tim Staples

"We don't know when Noah lived."

We have a few alternatives, right?

Masoretic, Samaritan and LXX genealogies are given only so many alternatives about how long after Adam's creation, how long before Abraham was born, right?

" It is not revealed in Scripture."

There are genealogies in Scripture, up to Abraham, and from then on somewhat more complex time indicators ... right?

"The genealogies are not strictly literal"

I don't know what "not strictly literal" means.

If you mean "literally taken, not strictly true" I do know what that means. But the quadriga Cassiani does not exactly allow halves, quarters, eighths, sixteenths and so on between "literal" and "allegoric".

The genealogy in Genesis 5 obviously has an allegoric sense too - recently discovered or rediscovered by the late Chuck Missler. "Man appointed mortal sorrow, the blessed God shall descend (with the) teaching (that) His death shall bring the afflicted comfort."

You could make a Christmas carol of it.* It is the strictly allegoric sense of Genesis 5. Now, Genesis 5 has a strictly literal, a strictly allegoric, a strictly moral and a strictly anagogic sense. Since the quadriga Cassiani refers to four distinct senses, each of them is strictly itself. 4 - 3 is exactly 1, not 1.414 or 1.618 or 0.707 or 0.618. Arithmetic does not refer to the infinitely divisible.

So, were you saying the genealogies in their literal sense are not strictly true? That would mean they don't indicate time in any meaningful way, but it would also be against what Trent said about Scripture.

"And I don't believe the flood was necessarily universal in nature. That is, it did not necessarily cover what is now North America."

Fr Fulcran Vigoroux agreed with you. He considered the Flood as very large, though, and he used boulders transported hundreds of kilometers from lithic source as proof. Meanwhile, that has been discovered in North America too (see Creation Ministries International).

His disqualification of universal Flood is based on a calculation of room in the Ark matching species fixism rather than baraminology as to each kind.

He also thought that Biblical chronological indications and history could be taken as literally true at least if one took the LXX timeline ... so, certain mussels in Paris basin could have (on his view) been from creation days extending some large periods before Adam (he had not thought of the Mark 10:6 objection), but any man descends from Adam.

Will you agree Kennewick man, builders of Göbekli Tepe, Neanderthals of El Sidrón and Homo praedecessor in Atapuerca descended from Adam and would, on Fr Vigoroux's view, have had to fit within the 5500 years from Adam's creation to birth of Our Lord?

"It would have been an enormous flood that would have covered the "world" as Noah understood it."

And how much of the world as it is would that have been, and why?

Would you agree that on Fr Vigoroux's view, Kennewick man could be pre-Flood, could be post-Flood in a never-flooded area, could therefore have not descended from Noah, but needs to have descended from Adam and Eve?

And would you agree with the species fixism which put restraints on Fr Vigoroux's Ark room? Did the alpaca and the camel never have a common ancestor? Were the emu and the ostrich separate creations? Are mammoths in the genetic sense unrelated to elephants?

* I checked later : "man appointed mortal sorrow" differs from "hark the herald angels sing" only in bisyllabic versus monosyllabic ending. So, when humming the list of name translations as a sentence, the melody I heard at the beginning would have been close to that of "hark the herald angels sing".

Correspondence with Ginzburg on Menocchio's Death

I

Me to Carlo Ginzburg

4/23/2019 at 12:20 PM

Good day, when in 1599 was Domenico Scandella called Menocchio burned?

And how do we know it?

I mean, when I had recently converted to the Catholic Church, I was discussing your book with a then history student, now history professor in Lund.

She - Yvonne Maria Werner - among other things criticised your book for concluding he was finally burned on pure probabilities without a document on that.

I don't think my memory of back then (your book was fairly new in Swedish translation) is too faulty. I don't think she would have concluded to your presenting a burning on pure probabilities without document if she had not thoroughly looked for one and found one lacking.

Has there come to light any document since then?

Hans Georg Lundahl

II

Carlo Ginzburg to me

4/23/2019 at 1:09 PM

RE: Good day, when in 1599 was Domenico Scandella called Menocchio burned?

You may go back to my book. See also

Domenico Scandella known as Menocchio : his trials before the Inquisition (1583-1599) / [edited] by Andrea Del Col ; translated by John & Anne C. Tedeschi, Binghamton 1996.
Carlo Ginzburg

III

Me to Carlo Ginzburg

4/23/2019 at 1:44 PM

Re: RE: Good day, when in 1599 was Domenico Scandella called Menocchio burned?

Grazie.

IV

Me to Carlo Ginzburg

4/25/2019 at 1:23 PM

Re: RE: Good day, when in 1599 was Domenico Scandella called Menocchio burned?

Could not find the second book, did look at the end of yours.

5.IX1599 a letter to Rome is sent from Frioul, which is lost.
Letters 30.X.1599 and 13.XI.1599 refer back to its content which was obviously already known to the inquisitors in Frioul.

Its content is not known to us.

26.I.1600 Menocchio has heirs.
6.VII.1601 a man appearing before the tribunal deposits having heard from a landlady of some inn that Scandella had been executed by the Holy Office.

Certainly, it seems very probable that he was indeed executed to death, but not the only option.

• 1) Scandella was 64. To a man of good health, this was perhaps no age, but he was a miller. They have a hard job and often eat much. So, he could have died a natural death by heartstroke, I knew a baker who died at 55, and the justice in question (30.X.1599) could be about burning his corpse after it came out he had relapsed between last time in inquisition and a burial in a normal churchyard, it could be about his not polluting the churchyard by heresy;
• 2) he could have committed suicide, similar observations about a normal burial being unjust to the Christians corpses who would hopefully rise to glory and might not want to have a damned suicide beside them when they woke up on Doomsday;
• 3) he could have heirs because juridically dead, and the execution by the Holy Office could be like a sentence in contumaciam, the burning in effigie.

I would admit the first two options are somewhat less likely than his being executed, since execution is what the gossip of the landlady was hinting at, but with a burning in effigie, the symbolic act could have been routinely referred to as an execution. It would definitely have involved a civic death so he could have heirs.

I am reminded that a few centuries earlier, Bernard Guy in 930(?) processes (of which the relative majority were incarcerations), had burned about 1/10, but only about 1/20 in person, and the other about 1/20 only in effigie.

As I could not find the book by Andrea Del Col here, do you know if some discovery of his after your work has cleared up that he was indeed burned to death or immediately after being strangled to death?

A note, you noted that you were correcting one P. Paschini who claimed that only one had been executed by the Inquisition in Frioul, a smith in 1568, so that makes, if you are right, two. And it seems the dossier was running in processes 449 to 546, and this would mean that in 546 processes one or two men were executed for heresy. Am I missing something?

Hans Georg Lundahl
at Nanterre UL
Fifth Day of Easter, 25.IV.2019

V

Carlo Ginzburg to me

4/25/2019 at 6:02 PM

RE: RE: Good day, when in 1599 was Domenico Scandella called Menocchio burned?

Your speculations about Domenica Scandella's death are frivolous. The evidence about his death on the stake can be disproven, in principle, only on the basis on some conflicting, and more reliable evidence. I am not aware of it.
How many men and women were tortured and/or put to death, for centuries, by the Inquisition? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? We'll never kow. The historical judgement about the institution does not depend from those figures.
A pope (John Paul II) publicly asked forgiveness for the Church's mistakes – belatedly and too vaguely.
This exchange, as far as I am concerned, is over.
Carlo Ginzburg

VI

Me to Carlo Ginzburg

4/27/2019 at 11:36 AM

Re: RE: RE: Good day, when in 1599 was Domenico Scandella called Menocchio burned?

The evidence for his dying on the stake is on the contrary ambiguious. An execution can refer to a burning in effigie.

The fact Rome wrote twice may imply Inquisitors in Frioul were "buying time" - so Scandella could escape. Or dienaturally.

The wording in the letters from Rome certainly may refer to punishing a living Scandella most severely, that is by burning, but could also refer to punishing a dead Scandella by exhumation from an undue Christian burial. Or to punishing some lynchmob who had taken the matter in its own hands for killing him after Inquisitors were more or less satisfied with his future at least token Orthodoxy.

I do not say each of these possibilities is as likely as his being burned, but it is sufficiently likely to be a not frivolous doubt.

"How many men and women were tortured and/or put to death, for centuries, by the Inquisition? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? We'll never kow."

I suppose you mean "know".

In other words, you have shown a bias towards accusing Inquisitors of killing many.

I must confess to the opposite bias.

"The historical judgement about the institution does not depend from those figures."

In the balance between Bernard Guy burning 930 and Bernard Guy burning 42 or 45 among 930, it does. Hence my question if in over 500 processes in Frioul, only two (including) or - if my doubts are taken into account - only one certainly and another one dubiously were actually burned.

It is not the difference between killing or not killing over faith. But it is the difference between "damned as soon as accused" and "a fairly high security of rights (relative to a system which killed over faith)."

"A pope (John Paul II) publicly asked forgiveness for the Church's mistakes – belatedly and too vaguely."

A non-Pope, Antipope Wojtyla, also scandalous against Catholic orthodoxy on other occasions, like twice over 1986.

"This exchange, as far as I am concerned, is over."

Your choice.

Hans Georg Lundahl

News Correspondence after Christchurch

New blog on the kid : Should NZ Have Exiled the Christchurch Mosque and Attending Members? · Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : News Correspondence after Christchurch

Me to Mosque in NZ (Al Noor?)

3/27/2019 at 12:11 PM

Good day, I hope mourning is over and your dead are buried

One question.

It seems two NZ citizens (definitely English heritage occidentals) attending your mosque Masjid Al Noor in Christchurch some years ago became Muslim terrorists.

Christopher Havard and Daryl Jones - a k a Abu Suhaib Australi and Abu Salma Australi.

The imam from back in or somewhat before 2013, is he still around or has he been exchanged?

Hans Georg Lundahl

Me to Mosque in NZ (Al Noor?)

3/28/2019 at 8:38 PM

Good day, I hope mourning is over and your dead are buried - Correction?

Previously sent below:
__________________________________
One question.

It seems two NZ citizens (definitely English heritage occidentals) attending your mosque Masjid Al Noor in Christchurch some years ago became Muslim terrorists.

Christopher Havard and Daryl Jones - a k a Abu Suhaib Australi and Abu Salma Australi.

The imam from back in or somewhat before 2013, is he still around or has he been exchanged?

Hans Georg Lundahl
_________________________________

It seems two Mosques were attacked, were the two terrorists from the Linwood Mosque?/HGL

What disappeared from my mail?

The letters about two articles in Vice News.

This article is still there:

Vice News : New Zealand's Gun Laws Are Already Changing After the Christchurch Attacks
Christchurch shooting|by Zoe Madden-Smith|Mar 18 2019, 10:35pm
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bjqk8v/new-zealands-gun-laws-are-already-changing-after-the-christchurch-attacks

Another one, in Florida, was about an Imam in Baton Rouge who considered arming people in the Mosque.

I can't find it. As I can't find the letters, one to Vice News asking if they are a satire site and one to that Mosque in Baton Rouge asking if the news was correct.

Since I have elsewhere confirmed that Vice News was stating a fact about NZ changing gun laws, that was no sature news, I must conclude the news about the imam of Baton Rouge is also correct.

What did not disappear from my mail?

The answers from the Mosques in Christchurch. As far as I have seen so far, there has been no reply./HGL

With Mackey on Haman and on Babel

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Does my Interpretation of Mahabharata and Ramayana Offend Hindoos? · If Tower of Babel was a Rocket Project, Why was it Called a Tower? · If Tower of Babel was a Rocket Project - What Else Can We Expect? · Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : Sin of Babel - Two Views · Φιλολoγικά/Philologica again: In case anyone missed this · Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : With Mackey on Haman and on Babel · Creation vs. Evolution : Bricks at Göbekli Tepe or Close? · How My View of Babel Ties in with "Defending Biblical Inerrancy" · Ten Keys to my Idea of Göbekli Tepe as Babel and its Tower as a Rocket · Geographic Spread Before Babel?

A

I

Me to Damien Mackey

2/13/2019 at 10:49 AM

Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

Et ut manifestius quod dicimus, intelligatis, Aman filius Amadathi, et animo et gente Macedo, alienusque a Persarum sanguine, et pietatem nostram sua crudelitate commaculans, peregrinus a nobis susceptus est :

Now that you may more plainly understand what we say, I Aman the son of Amadathi, a Macedonian both in mind and country, and having nothing of the Persian blood, but with his cruelty staining our goodness, was received being a stranger by us:

("I Aman the son of Amadathi," is bad translation for "Aman the son of Amadathus," the site has probably been tampered with).

Esther 16:10

II

Damien Mackey to me

2/13/2019 at 11:06 PM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

Elsewhere he is called a "Bougaean". What the hell is that?

III

Me to Damien Mackey

2/14/2019 at 11:58 AM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

A google gave this:

https://www.biblicaltraining.org/library/bougaean

And obviously other possibilities exist too.

Haydock for Esther 12:6 is here:

Ver. 6. Bugite, may refer to some town of Macedon. C. iii. 1. --- Honour. Yet he might be still more exalted, after the conspiracy was detected; (Houbig.) as the king little suspected that he was concerned in it. H. --- Death. It is thought that they wished to place Aman, or some Macedonian, on the throne. C. xvi. 12. 14. C. --- This reason for the malevolence of Aman, might be unknown to Mardochai. C. xiii. 12. Houbigant. --- The former was either a favourer of traitors, or perhaps of the same conspiracy. W.

C = Challoner, an 18th C bishop for English Catholics.

https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/untitled-524.shtml#navPoint_525

IV

Damien Mackey to me

2/14/2019 at 11:34 PM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

Haman (Aman) is king Amon of Judah.

Your Haman is probably a Boogeyman, sorry Bougaean.

V

Me to Damien Mackey

2/15/2019 at 10:20 AM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

"Josephus thinks that Esther was the queen of Artaxerxes Longimanus, who was a great friend of the Jews. D."

https://www.ecatholic2000.com/haydock/untitled-512.shtml#navPoint_513

Which Artaxerxes was that?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artaxerxes_I_of_Persia

Reign 465–424 BC

Amon of Judah

"Amon is most remembered for his idolatrous practices while king, which led to a revolt against him and eventually his assassination in c. 641 BC."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amon_of_Judah

Type of end - assassination vs execution - doesn't match.

And 641 BC was not in the reign of Artaxerxes Longimanus or Artaxerxes I.

Offense also doesn't match, idolatry being a different one from trying to annihilate Jews for not bowing down to men.

IV Kings 22 / II Paralipomenon 33 vs Book of Esther, which account is on your view garbled?

Either way, you are withdrawing "qui loquutus est per prophetas" from historical books.

VI

Damien Mackey to me

2/16/2019 at 2:32 AM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

If you'd read my Esther articles over the years you would know that it is Darius the Mede/Cyrus.

He was a friend of the Jews.

Don't confuse your Boogeyman with Longimanus or Longshanks.

VII

Me to Damien Mackey

2/16/2019 at 10:23 AM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

Saying Haman and Ahasuerus need to be contemporaries is not confusing them.

Darius the Mede is mentioned in the Book of Daniel as king of Babylon between Belshazzar and Cyrus the Great, but he is not known to history, and no additional king can be placed between the known figures of Belshazzar and Cyrus.[1] Most scholars view him as a literary fiction, but some have tried to harmonise the Book of Daniel with history by identifying him with various known figures, notably Cyrus or Ugbaru, the general who was first to enter Babylon when it fell to the Persians in 539 BCE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darius_the_Mede

One century too much difference.

VIII

Me to Damien Mackey

2/16/2019 at 10:24 AM

Re: Hello, etc? Clarification on previous

I cited the wiki for the years, not for " Most scholars view him as a literary fiction, " which I obviously don't attribute to Daniel.

IX

Damien Mackey to me

2/17/2019 at 1:58 AM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

Josephus got one right.

He said that Artaxerxes Longpants (Longimanus) was also called Cyrus.

I add that he was also Darius the Mede.

X

Me to Damien Mackey

2/17/2019 at 6:18 PM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

Possible, but even so, he is too late to have ordered killing Amon of Judah.

XI

Damien Mackey to me

2/17/2019 at 11:08 PM

Re: Hello, Aman a bad king of Juda, you said?

Whatever you say, H-G.

B

I

Me to Damien Mackey

2/21/2019 at 6:37 PM

palaeolithics 1 - 3

https://www.academia.edu/38355575/So-called_Paleolithic_man_was_not_dumb._Part_One_Long_cultural_tradition_of_sky_watching

"French paleo-astronomer Chantal Jegues-Wolkiewiez insists there was a long cultural tradition of skywatching among the people of the Cro-Magnon Age of Europe (30,000-10,000 BCE)."

I would say, carbon dated (this is usually the case with this kind of dates) 30 - 10 000 BC = post-Flood to about death of Noah.

Meaning the 8 on the ark were teaching some astronomy before there was any occasion to teach metallurgy in practise.

"She proposes that the famous cave paintings of Lascaux in France record the constellations of a prehistoric version of the zodiac which included solstice points and major stars. Her theory is based on the discovery of numerous dots and tracings superimposed on the paintings of bulls, aurochs and horses on the walls of Lascaux. She claims these correspond to the patterns of constellations – most notably the constellations ofTaurusand Pleiades and the stars Aldeberan and Antares. She proposes most of the constellations are represented by paintings of animals, accurately depicting their coloring and coats during the corresponding seasons of the year."

Very probable.

That was the good part.

Now for two bad parts:

https://creation.com/a-better-model-for-the-stone-age

Osgood thought Acheulian and Mousterian Canaanean. I think them pre-Flood. I obviously also think Aurignacian is from before Noah died, as per previous remark. And post-Flood.

More directly you, since you might not share this error by Osgood : comparison to "palaeolithic" populations today.

I think some of the remaining palaeolithics were shirking the building of Babel (however, aboriginal Australians share a symbol found on Göbekli Tepe, the horizontal oval with an inner field divided in three, if I recall details correctly, and Polynesians share the birdman motive with GT).

But once they were away from Nimrod, they could have started developing agriculture, they didn't. Bad move. Cultural heresy, if you want.

The one good thing, if ever the Church is saved in what is even now a wilderness, if people like they are around, they may greatly help survival chances. Anyway, either way, identity of material tools (on a very rough approximation at least) does not mean identity of overall culture. Therefore, however stupid a modern palaeolithic were in some respect, it wouldn't stop the early palaeolithics from being much smarter than we and simply separated from a pre-Flood culture buried under mud, probably as high as Mount Everest.

However, I am not into stamping modern palaeolithics as dumb, and I appreciate your Ehrenrettung!

https://www.academia.edu/38355624/So-called_Paleolithic_man_was_not_dumb._Part_Two_Australian_Aboriginal_Astronomy

https://www.academia.edu/38373387/So-called_Paleolithic_man_was_not_dumb._Part_Three_Skilled_Aboriginal_encoding_of_knowledge

The last piece, btw, is a great clue how history from Genesis 2-11 was preserved, before Abraham got a beduin tribe which could start stocking written records./HGL

II

Damien Mackey to me

2/21/2019 at 11:12 PM

Re: palaeolithics 1 - 3

"... aboriginal Australians share a symbol found on Göbekli Tepe, the horizontal oval with an inner field divided in three, if I recall details correctly, and Polynesians share the birdman motive with GT".

Now that I find interesting.

III

Me to Damien Mackey

2/22/2019 at 6:13 PM

Re: palaeolithics 1 - 3

http://ancientnews.net/2017/10/13/a-global-aboriginal-australian-culture-the-proof-at-gobekli-tepe/

For birdman, the funny thing is, it's more visible on pinterest than on the article it links to.

http://beforeitsnews.com/v3/blogging-citizen-journalism/2013/2448608.html

https://www.pinterest.fr/pin/392728029989417289/

IV

Me to Damien Mackey

2/22/2019 at 7:10 PM

palaeolitics 4

I saw you found it already ....

https://www.academia.edu/38411076/So-called_Paleolithic_man_was_not_dumb._Part_Four_Australian_Aboriginal_link_to_G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

How do you feel about Göbekli Tepe = Babel?

V

Damien Mackey to me

2/23/2019 at 1:00 AM

Re: palaeolitics 4

I feel nothing about it.

Isaiah (Septuagint) clearly locates the Tower in the vicinity of Calneh and Carchemish. The true land of Shinar (as opposed to Sumer), as I believe.

G.T. in Turkey is none of these.

VI

Me to Damien Mackey

2/23/2019 at 10:10 AM

Re: palaeolitics 4

Vicinity?

Not quite.

And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar

But if land of Shinar is all of Mesopotamia, which is very arguable, then easternmost parts of Turkey (where GT is) belong to it.

If "vicinity" is based on another verse, tell me which one.

[I had missed he mentioned Isaiah, and he did not respond about which other verse by citing Isaiah in LXX, however, his main point is geography of Carchemish.]

VII

Me to Damien Mackey

2/23/2019 at 10:15

Sumer / Shinar the connection

I'd consider Sumer is a Sumerian form of Shinar and means Sumerians were originally claiming some kind of superiority over northern neighbours, all over Shinar.

A bit like USA being called "America" has stuck despite Argentina or Chile or Newfoundland clearly being in Americas* but outside US.

Or like a very big island and a somewhat smaller one called Tasmania or van Diemen's land have taken the name "Australia" formerly equivalent to Oceania and meaning lands (that is islands) all over South (hence Australia) Pacific Ocean (hence Oceania).

It is extremely possible that Sumerian was originally one of the 72 languages originating way further NW in Shinar, that is in Göbekli Tepe./HGL

* One could arguably only defend the plural after Panama canal.

VIII

Me to Damien Mackey

2/23/2019 at 10:50 AM

vicinity, bis

36°49′47″N 38°00′54″E Carchemish (funny Greeks and Latins call the site Europus)
37°13′23″N 38°55′21″E Göbekli Tepe
1°36'24" N/S 0°54'27" E/W

48°51'24"N (Paris N/S)
-1°36'24"
47°15'N

Nantes 47°13′05″N 1°33′10″W
Montsoreau 47°13′02″N 0°03′28″E
Bourges 47°05′04″N 2°23′47″E

48°51'24"N (Paris for comparison, again)
+1°36'24"
49°87'48"
50°27'48"N

Lille 50°37′40″N 3°03′30″E
Charleroi 50°24′N 04°26′E

2°21'03"E (Paris E/W)
0°54'27"
2°75'30"
3°15'30"E

Montescourt-Lizerolles 49°44′21″N 3°15′30″

2°21'03"E (Paris E/W)
1°80'63"E
0°54'27"
1°26'36"E

Saumur 47° 15′ 36″ nord, 0° 04′ 37″ ouest
Villebernier 47° 15′ 14″ nord, 0° 01′ 46″ ouest
Besançon 47° 14′ 35″ nord, 6° 01′ 19″ est
Auxerre 47° 47′ 55″ nord, 3° 34′ 02″ est

I think Auxerre is about as far from Paris as Carchemish from GÖbekli Tepe.

169.3 km, with me walking 15 km per day, that would be 11 full days march and arriving on day 12.

In order NOT to have Carchemish close to Göbekli Tepe, you would need to think in terms of very small "empires."

IX

Me to Damien Mackey

2/23/2019 at 12:55 PM

identity of Sennaar

"I turned next back to Göbekli Tepe and Harran. The sites are apparently intervisible, just over 40 km apart. The difference in latitude from Harran to Göbekli Tepe equals precisely 1/1,000 of earth's circumference. This is where we enter a twilight zone in ancient astronomy. Of course, the opposite metaphor—"the dawn" of ancient astronomy, is the proper one regarding the implication. Göbekli Tepe features the oldest known room aligned north-south, evidence of astronomy in practice."

http://jqjacobs.net/blog/gobekli_tepe.html

Note, Harran is exactly border of Turkey-Syria, and GT is NW corner, Harran middle of a great plain, which is however limited by surrounding hill country to mountain country, and which, as between Euphrates and Tigris, is in Shinar=Mesopotamia.

"And the beginning of his kingdom was Babylon, and Arach, and Achad, and Chalanne in the land of Sennaar."
[Genesis 10:10] LXX has 10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babylon, and Orech, and Archad, and Chalanne, in the land of Senaar.

"And when they removed from the east, they found a plain in the land of Sennaar, and dwelt in it."
[Genesis 11:2] LXX has 2 And it came to pass as they moved from the east, they found a plain in the land of Senaar, and they dwelt there.

"And it came to pass at that time, that Amraphel king of Sennaar, and Arioch king of Pontus, and Chodorlahomor king of the Elamites, and Thadal king of nations,"
[Genesis 14:1] LXX has 14:1 And it came to pass in the reign of Amarphal king of Sennaar, and Arioch king of Ellasar, that Chodollogomor king of Elam, and Thargal king of nations,

"To wit, against Chodorlahomor king of the Elamites, and Thadal king of nations, and Amraphel king of Sennaar, and Arioch king of Pontus: four kings against five."
[Genesis 14:9] LXX has 9 against Chodollogomor king of Elam, and Thargal king of nations, and Amarphal king of Sennaar, and Arioch king of Ellasar, the four kings against the five.

"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand the second time to possess the remnant of his people, which shall be left from the Assyrians, and from Egypt, and from Phetros, and from Ethiopia, and from Elam, and from Sennaar, and from Emath, and from the islands of the sea."
[Isaias (Isaiah) 11:11] LXX has 11 And it shall be in that day, [that] the Lord shall again shew his hand, to be zealous for the remnant that is left of the people, which shall be left by the Assyrians, and [that] from Egypt, and from the country of Babylon, and from Ethiopia, and from the Elamites, and from the rising of the sun, and out of Arabia.

"And the Lord delivered into his hands Joakim the king of Juda, and part of the vessels of the house of God: and he carried them away into the land of Sennaar, to the house of his god, and the vessels he brought into the treasure house of his god."
[Daniel 1:2] LXX has 2 And the Lord gave into his hand Joakim king of Juda, and part of the vessels of the house of God: and he brought them into the land of Sennaar to the house of his god; and he brought the vessels into the treasure-house of his god.

"And he said to me: That a house may be built for it in the land of Sennaar, and that it may be established, and set there upon its own basis."
[Zacharias (Zechariah) 5:11] LXX has 11 And he said to me, To build it a house in the land of Babylon, and to prepare [a place for it]; and they shall set it there on its own base.

So, is Sennaar Sinjar, in Syria? Or is it Babylon, as per two translations in LXX and one context equation either text? Or is it both, as per both are between Euphrates and Tigris?

In this latter case, Göbekli Tepe is in Sennaar. Not outside.

And unlike the plain around the historic city Babylon, the plain near GT can be found, since it is delimited within a hill country.

The plain around historic Babylon cannot be found in the land, it is the land of Sennaar which can be found in that plain. Ergo, the plain around Harran with GT in a corner is a better match.

It is also a fact that you find the plain first, as you pass from the East from Mount Judi (in the mountainS of Ararat) to Göbekli Tepe. Mount Judi is in Cizre, Göbekli Tepe is near Şanlıurfa, a map between the two shows:



And both are within Shinar.

X

Damien Mackey to me

2/24/2019 at 3:04 AM

Re: vicinity, bis

You might find that Babel is actually in Paris.

Dan Brown would be interested to know that.

XI

Me to Damien Mackey

2/25/2019 at 11:32 AM

Re: vicinity, bis

You might find out that maths have applications .... I was comparing distance from Göbekli Tepe to Carchemish to distance from Paris to Auxerre.

Now, Paris and Auxerre are in same post-Babel (not immediately post-Babel, though) nation, France.

Therefore Carchemish and GT can have been so too.

XII

Damien Mackey to me

2/25/2019 at 11:20 PM

Re: vicinity, bis

Why do you want Gobbling Turkey (GT) to be Babel?

Where are the remnants of the Tower? - that would be a good start.

XIII

Me to Damien Mackey

2/26/2019 at 1:05 PM

Re: vicinity, bis

"Why do you want Gobbling Turkey (GT) to be Babel?"

• 1) Fits geographically, as in Mesopotamia
• 2) Fits geographically, as that part of Mesopotamia allows you to actively FIND a plain (the one stretching SE of GT)
• 3) Fits geographically, supposing Ark landed on Mount Judi, since that would imply removing precisely from the East
• 4) Fits geographically, since close to Carchemish (which you consider as Calneh).
• 5) Fits linguistically, since showing no written remains of a non-Hebrew language.
• 6) Fits temporally and linguistically, as all written records of non-Hebrew languages are posterior to it.
• 7) Fits temporally in carbon dating, since between démise of Neanderthals (my carbon date for Flood, 2957 BC) and the Chalcolithic (my carbon date for Genesis 14, 1935 BC).
• 8) Fits culturally, as cultural influences could have spread from there to anywhere (see Australian symbol, see bird man).
• 9) Fits culturally with Nimrod, as skulls perforated in vortex and persumably tied around a rope vertically have been found, which would be Nimrod's threat on how to deal with shirkers.

"Where are the remnants of the Tower? - that would be a good start."

• 1) Weaker alternative would be : Harran. However, it seems the carbon dates don't fit.
• 2) Stronger alternative : it left no remains, since it was no building.
  
  Or better : it left no material remains. It left cultural ones, climaxing at Cape Canaveral and Bajkonur. Nimrod wanted a rocket. He didn't get one in his lifetime, but he got quite a few with some millennia of delay.

Do you want to start pointing out problems, or shall I deal with the already known ones?

• 1) Culture wasn't sufficiently advanced? With no written remains, which means one cannot pronounce negatively against pieces of culture not being shown in remains. Later culture didn't show such an advance? Technology loss. Both actively mastered and only projected technologies can be lost.
• 2) If a rocket, why did Moses say "Tower" and not "Rocket"? Any invention is called after sth already existing, and "rocket" is called after firework rockets, usually, and these are called for different things, in English, German and Scandinavian languages an Italian word for bobbin is used, in French a word for sword hilt, in Greek fire-flute, in Chinese fire-arrow. What would you chose if you were dealing with a space rocket first? Tower would be on the list. Plus Moses would have not tried to enhance knowledge about lost technology.
• 3) If a rocket, what for? To make a name for oneself (see Bible) and to get into Heaven (see Bible) on the top floor of the tower (a k a last step of the rocket).

Perks with the idea?

• 1) A very pertinent answer to "if God took offense at a skyscraper, why did He allow rockets?" It was a rocket He stopped and later eventually also allowed. Difference is, now rocket engineers are not a drafted humanity, but a minority.
• 2) Ziggurats from Mesopotamia are all of them too recent, after there was a Sumerian language, therefore post-Babel.
• 3) If Nimrod, knowing the pre-Flood lore later formalised as Mahabharata (and it seems to have originally included warlike use of Uranium) was trying to use Uranium for rocket fuel, his rocket would have been a major safety hazard if he had gone through with project, meaning the theory if true means Nimrod was a bungler and God was stopping a major disaster from happening. Also, the safe rocket fuel now used is H2 + O2, the reaction gives water, and this contains an allegory on us needing "water" (baptism) to get to Heaven.
• 4) The remains are cultural ones : China men inventing firework rockets, Greeks and Amerindians dreaming of heros and diverse others thrown up into the stars. And, closer at hand, stone circles and ziggurats to get a better grasp on astronomy, if Nimrod too the defeat as a sign from God he was a bit off in astronomy (which he was if he hoped getting past planets and stars to God's abode before rocket became unbreathable and unable to sustain human life as to water and nutrition).

I actually forgot one of the "fits" (just waiting for your pun) : the post-Flood recovery of agriculture is starting "about a millennium" before GT (carbon date wise), and the area is North Syria with East Turkey. This fit is both temporal and geographic and cultural. Before you can start either an empire or a rocket project (however failed it might be) you need a basis in food supply.

https://filolohika.blogspot.com/2016/02/letter-of-ex-oriente-i-preliminary-to.html

http://filolohika.blogspot.com/2016/02/letter-of-ex-oriente-ii-continuing.html

http://filolohika.blogspot.com/2016/02/letter-of-ex-oriente-iii-explanation.html

http://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2016/11/advantages-of-shorter-carbon-14.html

Akarçay noted in agricultural part is in the province of Şanlıurfa which is also where GT is, and 'Ain Jammam is at the other end of Syria or Iraq, since close to Saudi Arabia:

‘Ain al-Jammam is situated high on a ridge overlooking the Hisma plateau that extends into Saudi Arabia. The site consists of two distinct sites: a Byzantine farmstead and a Neolithic village.

http://moses.creighton.edu/vr/Jammam/site.html

That's how vast Nimrod's empire was.

Continued Correspondence with Palm, Baraminology and introducing Carter, adding Carbon 14 and Lake Suigetsu

With David Palm, Mainly on Flood, Ark, Ararat · Continued Correspondence with Palm, Baraminology and introducing Carter, adding Carbon 14 and Lake Suigetsu

19 jan 2019 à 17:04

Me to David Palm

[link to previous post]
With David Palm, Mainly on Flood, Ark, Ararat
https://correspondentia-ioannis-georgii.blogspot.com/2019/01/with-david-palm-mainly-on-flood-ark.html

mar 18:33

Tu 5.II.2019

David Palm to me

So sorry about the delay in getting back to you, Hans-Georg. I'm still not at all seeing how the hyper-evolution off the ark works. For one thing, the entire surface of the earth would have been decimated, hardly the best place for animals then to thrive. What did the carnivores eat if not the non-carnivores that just came off the boat and that could put an end to those lines of animals pretty fast. We know that severe bottlenecks in populations cause lots of problems, so we would predict a lack of genetic diversity and unhealthy populations, not the tremendous explosion of speciation you are positing.

Here's a good article on this:

Naturalis Historia : Ken Ham’s Darwinism: On The Origin of Species by Means of Hyper-Evolution Following Noah’s Flood
July 17, 2018 by Natural Historian
https://thenaturalhistorian.com/2018/07/17/ken-hams-darwinism-on-the-origin-of-species-by-means-of-hyper-evolution-following-noahs-flood-2/

"There are many problems with the content and conclusions of AiG article, Reimagining Ark Kinds, including: 1) the lack of any Biblical record or documentation by any other non-biblical historical records of such radical biological change, 2) the irony of how AiG is using reconstructions of ancient organisms based on the evidence of historical science—a science they usually denigrate—to justify their belief that organisms have evolved into many new species, 3) the irony of a complete lack of any reference to transition fossils for the thousands of new species that YECs say have formed from each Biblical kind, and 4) the fact they openly admit that hundreds of thousands of fossils exist that are not the product of global flood deposits but rather were fossilized after speciating following their departure from the ark. The latter is a an admission that fossilization can readily occur in a non-global-flood context."

This article by the same guy is interesting, in that he points out that the Bible records many species that are identical to our modern ones, thus shortening even further how much time this hyper-evolution/speciation has to occur. And yet we don't observe it now and nobody seems to have observed it in the past:

Naturalis Historia : Ken Ham’s Biblical Evolution? I Have a Book That Says Otherwise
February 5, 2016 by Natural Historian
https://thenaturalhistorian.com/2016/02/05/ken-hams-biblical-evolution-i-have-a-book-that-says-otherwise/

Me to David Palm

"So sorry about the delay in getting back to you, Hans-Georg. I'm still not at all seeing how the hyper-evolution off the ark works."

For hedgehogs and moonrats, one of them needs to have a major mutation about spines/"hairs". Within each, there needs to be isolation so as to produce different species. No hype on that evolution.

"For one thing, the entire surface of the earth would have been decimated, hardly the best place for animals then to thrive."

God would have provided survival needs.

"What did the carnivores eat if not the non-carnivores that just came off the boat"

Ask Gollum, so to speak ... fissssssssssssh

"and that could put an end to those lines of animals pretty fast."

If fish had been scarce, [which was] hardly the case.

"We know that severe bottlenecks in populations cause lots of problems,"

If random events of disaster, you forget God brough the animals on the ark.

"so we would predict a lack of genetic diversity and unhealthy populations, not the tremendous explosion of speciation you are positing."

We are not talking a tremendous explosion of new information. We are talking of downgrading mutations striking differently and thereby causing reproductive isolation.

"Here's a good article on this:"

Will see ...

Naturalis Historia : Ken Ham’s Darwinism: On The Origin of Species by Means of Hyper-Evolution Following Noah’s Flood
July 17, 2018 by Natural Historian
https://thenaturalhistorian.com/2018/07/17/ken-hams-darwinism-on-the-origin-of-species-by-means-of-hyper-evolution-following-noahs-flood-2/

Citing [it] myself: "During that time at least 95% (probably 99% or more) of all species of land mammals and birds that have lived are proposed to have evolved from just a few common ancestors—the “ark kinds”—preserved on the Ark."

With hedgehogs and moonrats, there was arguably one couple and then 25 species from that. 1/25 = 4%, 96 % of the species being added to those of the original number.

He cites earlier articles, one of which considers Terror Birds an added kind and so on, as if Terror Birds couldn't have been same kind as emus, cassowaries, kiwis, elephant birds, ostriches.

"There are many problems with the content and conclusions of AiG article, Reimagining Ark Kinds, including:
1) the lack of any Biblical record or documentation by any other non-biblical historical records of such radical biological change,"

The change from one hedgehog couple to 25 hedgehog and moonrat species is not very radical.

"2) the irony of how AiG is using reconstructions of ancient organisms based on the evidence of historical science—a science they usually denigrate—to justify their belief that organisms have evolved into many new species,
3) the irony of a complete lack of any reference to transition fossils for the thousands of new species that YECs say have formed from each Biblical kind,"

Ironic, perhaps, but there is a clear difference between hedgehogs descending from Deinogalerix and hedgehogs with moles having a common ancestor with dogs, cats, seals and hoofed animals (evolutionary superorder "Laurasiatheria (hedgehogs, shrews, moles, whales, bats, dogs, cats, seals, and hoofed mammals)")

"and 4) the fact they openly admit that hundreds of thousands of fossils exist that are not the product of global flood deposits but rather were fossilized after speciating following their departure from the ark. The latter is a an admission that fossilization can readily occur in a non-global-flood context."

I may actually differ on how much I accept of "geologic column" from them. If it is carbon dated post 40 000 BP, yes, it is post-Flood, but some of them are so naive about "geologic column" they ask "where in the geologic column is the limit between pre-Flood, in-Flood and post-Flood deposits?"

"This article by the same guy is interesting, in that he points out that the Bible records many species that are identical to our modern ones, thus shortening even further how much time this hyper-evolution/speciation has to occur. And yet we don't observe it now and nobody seems to have observed it in the past:"

Naturalis Historia : Ken Ham’s Biblical Evolution? I Have a Book That Says Otherwise
February 5, 2016 by Natural Historian
https://thenaturalhistorian.com/2016/02/05/ken-hams-biblical-evolution-i-have-a-book-that-says-otherwise/

I'd probably divide felids from pantherids and foxes from dogs. But I'd agree on elephant kind.

Obviously, an evolution which goes from a common ancestor to coyotes and poodles is slower than visible change. Therefore, barring special interest by breeders, is unlikely to get recorded.

David Palm to me

Imo you're not seriously grappling with this problem. Basically you're just invoking miracles and unobserved mechanisms to fill in why the model doesn't fit and can't explain what we observe.

Me to David Palm

I am not, YOU are invoking a "diversity" which is not qualitatively there between the different species.

There is numeric "diversity" if you like, not a qualitatively radical one.

And, that is what we observe.

Cats and lynx are both felids, there are known crossbreeds.

Tigers and lions are both pantherids, and ligers exist.

David Palm to me

Do you know of any professional geneticist who would agree that a single pair (or even seven pairs) of animals have enough genetic diversity to be the original parents of all those disperate species, and that those species can all arise in the span of just a thousand years or so?

Me to David Palm

Do you know a single evolutionary geneticist who does not believe that all animals of all kinds have arisen from an ancestry with even less diversity, the first eucariotes being basically yeast cells?

Now, between yeast, pine trees and wolves, the diversity really is too much for me.

Between pine and spruce or wolf and coyote it isn't.

NONE of this depends on ancestral population being very diverse.

And there is something called the founder effect.

Suppose the first hedgehogs and the first moonrats just got isolated from each other, one of them having a mutation making the spines either much softer or much harder and pointier.

The smaller the populations are in which this happens, the quicker they will become diversified from each other if isolated from each other.

David Palm to me

Why don't we observe this happening now?

Me to David Palm

Going from Coyote to wolf takes time.

But we do observe cross breeds.

Here is how I feel about the appeal to accredited expertise only:

Assorted retorts from yahoo boards and elsewhere : ... on Expertise
https://assortedretorts.blogspot.com/2019/02/on-expertise.html

And I do know at least one geneticist who is baraminologist, his name is Robert Carter, he's on CMI:

https://www.facebook.com/robert.carter.904

Thanks for reminding me, we differ on what the possibilities are for Neanderthals being pre-Flood, and he just put the article from CMI (from Candlemass day, Australian timezone) on his wall, meaning I can respond with my own article, also from Candlemass day (Paris tz).

jeu 12:16

Th 7.II.2019

Me to David Palm

by the way, things came up on Jimmy Akin's podcst, here are my answers to same questions:

New blog on the kid : Rivalling Jimmy Akin, as Scholastic
https://nov9blogg9.blogspot.com/2019/02/rivalling-jimmy-akin-as-scholastic.html

jeu 16:50

Th 7.II.2019

David Palm to me

Hans-Georg, since you frequently reference carbon dating, I thought this might interest you.

https://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2018/PSCF6-18Davidson.pdf

Me to David Palm

Probably I would be interested, but:

"Ce programme est bloqué par une stratégie de groupe. Pour plus d'informations, contactez votre administrateur système."

In other words, unless you like to quote salient parts, I must wait until I am in a cyber or in another library.

David Palm to me

Try this link: www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/Nr53Carbon.pdf

Me to David Palm

That is also a pdf which will also be blocked.



[Right now the "stratégie de groupe" is changed, pdfs are working again.]

David Palm to me

Ah, okay.

Me to David Palm

This is a university library.

Probably, some students are writing essays and some of their professors are too lazy to look for what they could have plagiarized by internet search, so seek to eliminate even possibility for such plagiarism ... or sth ...

David Palm to me

How about through Messenger?

Me to David Palm

How do you mean?

I clicked on links, they started downloading and are now two downloads that cannot be opened.

Trust your own judgement in doing a fairly decent resumé of the arguments?

David Palm to me

It's an overlay of tree-ring data (for the first part of the curve), varve data from Lake Suigetsu, and C14 dating, showing excellent correlation out to 50K years.

Me to David Palm

"excellent correlation" is clearly overdone.

The "excellent correlation" leaves out that there are diverse bottlenecks with very little overlapping material.

And I did take a look at one material that was there, back a few years ago.

Not actual rings, but diagrams of how samples supposedly overlap.

The correlation of two or three different "ringed" tree objects was to my non-specialist view hazy. The lake as such depends on varves being ONLY:

* mud * flowers from cherry trees

and coming ONLY in the order it dropped down.

However, if lake was NOT always that peaceful, there can definitely have been occasions in which mud and flowers can have been mixed and then sorted in a layered way, meaning the lower and earlier layers are very far from annual.

Tas Walker also looked on them and they are "suspiciously narrow". [Can't find that reference, right now]

I was wondering whether the links were including some real challenge, like the one I was taking on here:

Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : Other Check on Carbon Buildup
http://correspondentia-ioannis-georgii.blogspot.com/2017/11/other-check-on-carbon-buildup.html

You see, fastest buildup in my scheme (which has made "gradual carbon buildup since the flood" less popular among protestants, since favouring on my view LXX over Masoretic chronology) would be around 10 or 11 times faster than now.

If there were simply equivalence between medium cosmic radiation at any place on earth and the quantity of C14 produced (twice more carbon in such and such time = twice as much radiation), that's clearly a safe level.

11 * 0.34 milliSievert per years is 3.74 milliSivert per year on medium height and locality.

Add that during the time before Younger Dryas, men could live lower down (less radiation!) and therefore medium inhabited height was lower than now. And if Equatorial regions were uninhabitable, there are not all that many human inhabited places dating by carbon from Upper Palaeolithic in that region.

B U T I came across info stating that this equivalence does not hold.

So, suppose it were a square, you'd have 121 times more radiation and 41.14 milliSievert per year is not healthy. In Japan they say 20 milliSievert per year is about the limit.

Hence, I checked. And, as you saw, got no answer.

(Btw, I cited medium level of milliSievert per year from cosmos as 0.34, that was from memory, now I see I have cited it as 0.39 ...)

Here we have it, should have been 0.39:

Cosmic
0.39 World average
0.3–1.0 Typical range
0.31 Princeton
0.26 Wa State
0.30 Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science, and Technology of Japan

David Palm to me

Well, have a look at the whole article when you can get access. I think you'll see that many of your questions are addressed.

Me to David Palm

I do not think they are, as you have presented it, it is written by one who ignored my facts.

David Palm to me

Well, have a look and see.

Me to David Palm

I may and may not, but you remind me of Protestants who recommend GotQuestions, then a lutheran attacking Apostolic succession as inverifiable and then another thing and another thing.

You see, I was not asking and will not ask how the now standard defense of uniformitarian calibration goes, I already know and dismiss it as worthless.

David Palm to me

OK

Me to David Palm

If you are interested and there are no "stratégies de groupe" against blogspot.com adresses, here is one post where I adress this:

Creation vs. Evolution : Hasn't Carbon 14 been Confirmatively Calibrated for Ages Beyond Biblical Chronology? By Tree Rings?
https://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2016/12/hasnt-carbon-14-been-confirmatively.html

jeu 20:49

Th 7.II.2019

Me to David Palm

First paper, authors have a bias:

https://biologos.org/author/gregg-davidson
BioLogos
https://biologos.org/author/ken-wolgemuth
BioLogos AND Petroleum consultant
Qualifications : neither is expert per se at Carbon 14 and neither at the relevant fields of botanics for dendrochronology.

Gregg Davidson is Professor and Chair of Geology and Geological Engineering at the University of Mississippi. His books on science and Christian faith include The Grand Canyon, Monument to an Ancient Earth (associate editor and contributing author), When Faith and Science Collide, and entries in Zondervan’s Dictionary of Christianity and Science.

Ken Wolgemuth is an ASA Fellow, adjunct professor of Geosciences at the University of Tulsa, and founder of Solid Rock Lectures. He has a 40-year career in the petroleum industry, and is a contributing author to The Grand Canyon, Monument to an Ancient Earth and to Zondervan’s Dictionary of Christianity and Science.

"Finding even older wood that overlapped in time with the dead trees extends the count back farther still. In principle, this record could be extended as far back in time as there were trees on Earth. However, there is a practical limitation, as it becomes increasingly difficult at a given location to find very old wood that reliably overlaps to yield an unbroken sequence far back in time. A gap in the record may be due, for example, to climatic changes in the past when trees did not readily grow in that area, or a time interval when most of the fallen trees fully decomposed."

Very candid admission, I would agree that tree rings in Arizona for recent pre-Columbian times are definitely reliable. Also used as a definitely reliable calibrational confirmation of C14.

"At present, the oldest reliable cross-dated count goes back about 14,000 years, based on living and fossil trees from Central Europe."

The problem is, there are bottlenecks of very few overlapping pieces of wood and these not very clear matches.

This they do not mention.

"The primary requirements for determining age are (1) a constant radioactive decay rate, (2) knowledge of the original carbon-14 content, and (3) quantification of any old carbon that may have been incorporated into the specimen. The last requirement applies mostly to marine samples, in which oceandwelling organisms, even today, extract carbon from seawater that has been “pre-aged” by long isolation from the atmosphere.4 Terrestrial samples, such as tree rings and lake sediments, are less susceptible to this complicating factor, limiting the primary requirements to the first two."

Agreed. Except for men and bears who cold live much on fish.

Someone seemed to have diagnosed pre-Columbian coastdwellers on Pyrenean Peninsula with syphilis - ah it wasn't the Azteks' fault, after all! - and then it turned out they could be post-Columbian ones, having eaten much shellfish.

"But recall how carbon-14 is formed. Variations in cosmic-ray flux, caused by a variety of factors such as solar flares and changes in Earth’s magnetic field, result in variable carbon-14 production. To turn a measured carbon-14 value into an age, independent methods are employed to first provide realistic assessments of past atmospheric production rates. This is an important note, for young-earth writers routinely make the false assertion that conventional geologists naively assume a constant historical production rate."

What they according to us DO assume is, carbon 14 has fluctuated around 100 pmC.

Minor fluctuations are not the same thing as a major different rate before Flood, leading to fairly low pmC at Flood, and a major different rate just after Flood up to, perhaps past Exodus, leading to a major buildup from around 1 - 2 pmC to sth like constantly around 100 pmC.

"If any of the conventional assumptions is not correct, it should become readily apparent as measured values trend outside this window. Moreover, specific young-earth claims should result in predictable departures from conventional expectations that would lend support to their model."

These guys have tested their model, not my competing one.

Their claim of "predictable departures" is moot, that would depend on what exact young earth model they were predicting them from.

And involving tree rings or varves is moot, since these are in cases (not too rare ones, once you get back in time) of doubt cross-checked by carbon dates, so it is circular proof.

Remains only whether the carbon dates as such would cause "predictable departures" from results.

No, they would not. Not within carbon, since my model is there to account from them, and not involving the "known ages" of such and such tree rings or varves, since that is "proven" with a circle from the carbon dating they pretend to be giving proof for.

"Multiple tree rings per year, postulated by Flood geologists, should yield values that fall above the window (rings are younger and higher in carbon-14 than conventionally expected)."

There is in fact no one tree for which I'd need this assumption. Some other would, depending on assumptions all trees living after flood were planted after flood, which is moot, and also on assumption Flood was in 2200 or 2400 BC or thereabouts, but if it was in 2957 BC? Or even less recently according to Syncellus.

"On the other hand, if atmospheric carbon-14 was much lower in the past, the data should plot well below the window. And any errors in cross-dating the tree rings, due to false-positive matches in ring patterns, should be readily apparent by data that abruptly shifts upward (wood younger than the match suggested) or downward (wood older than the match suggested)."

Very optimistic estimate, which I don't share.

"Just the raw tree-ring count and the measured carbon-14 content."

Except the raw tree ring count even beyond just 2000 years back has some presumptions of carbon 14 involved to even start matching where they do.

Matches are sometimes so loose, they can be arranged to where it would fit best with carbon 14.

"Either God saw fit that 14,000 tree rings equals 14,000 years, or God manipulated unrelated and independent processes (tree rings per year, atmospheric carbon-14 production, and radioactive decay rates) in a precise manner over a much more abbreviated time frame such that they are indistinguishable from the expectations of conventional geology."

Or a third, the two guys are promoting a fake news, bc they are not the right expertise to have a close look at tree rings, and they are overtrusting about one unbroken series of 14 000 tree rings.

"A closely related charge is that the tree-ring and varve studies were performed for the purpose of improving a radiocarbon calibration curve; therefore, our claim of not making use of calibration curves is somehow employing circular reasoning and our conclusions invalidated.21 This charge boils down to the nonsensical assertion that one cannot use data for more than one purpose. The cited researchers used their measured carbon-14 to refine a calibration curve. We made use of their measured data for a completely different purpose. Circular reasoning was left in the unemployment line."

Testing for matches in some vicinity of radiocarbon age (or Libby age, or uncalibrated carbon date, in BP) is sufficient for circularity to actually occur.

If they had looked further away in uncalibrated carbon time, they might have found better or as good matches, and therefore at least possibility of a radically different calibration.

"Near-zero carbon-14 content in older samples is accommodated by the hypothesis that atmospheric carbon-14 content at the time of the flood was only about 0.5 pMC and rose rapidly in the years following the flood."

He's referencing another model for carbon rise than mine. And others also have I have seen on CMI.

It can be noted that the transition unvarved - varved occurs at 40 pmC - corresponds to 7600 YA or 5600 BC (calibrated or roughly).

This would suggest there was a disruption heavier at some time after Babel, at Black Sea Flood, than during the Flood. Over Earth as a whole, such a result would be nonsense, but over a small lake, it would be possible.

"If multiple sediment couplets formed in pulses in the early post-flood years, deposits that formed in rapid succession should have nearly the same carbon-14 content."

If varves were subsequently multiplied, and then the most varves are from a very narrow part, according to Tas Walker's criticism.

I'm frankly too tired to look into this, it is half past nine.

dim 18:12

Su 10.II.2019

Me to David Palm

Now it is about 6pm, I am less tired.

Here is the thing.

When I do tables about carbon rise, I am very open about the calculations I make, not as in giving each and every one every time, but if challenged I'd happily respond on an article where I'd left sth out.

With comments enabled on a blog, no technical problem. Confer what happens with a pdf.

One of the guys said, with a rise in carbon levels, there would be a widely other pattern of carbon matching the varves.

In fact, I am not sure exactly what kind of carbon rise he envisages, but I don't think it is actually mine.

My carbon rise is in fact fairly steep, but it is not totally abrupt. Whether for matching of tree rings or for varves, things would so to speak pull the matchings apart elastically. For varves, that means more chance of very thin varves actually getting separately noticed, for instance, and I admit, I have no complete solution on this one, but it is also not so incomplete as to be doubtful.

Here is the CMI take on Suigetsu:

CMI : National Geographic plays the dating game
by John Woodmorappe | This article is from
Journal of Creation (formerly TJ) 16(1):48–50, April 2002
https://creation.com/national-geographic-plays-the-dating-game