- I
- Chabad.org to me
- 3/10/2022 at 8:10 PM
- Contact Confirmation { Ref. No. 5588688 }
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- Vera Cheberiak - was she of Jewish origin?
Is it possible she knew sufficient of ritual slaughter to imitate the proceding with a human object and simply was herself the one trying to blame Jews?
As for Beilis being "the Tsar's" scapegoat, it seems to me, he was rather, like the Kaiser in the Xanten case, trying to make a point of exonerating reasonably suspect Jewish collectivities.
- II
- Simcha Bart to me
- 3/11/2022 at 7:20 AM
- Chabad.org: Feedback { Ref. No. 5588688 }
- B"H
Hi Hans Georg,
I think it is important to see the case in the context of how Russian people, as well as the Tsars, had been treating Jews during the century preceding the Beilis case, to get an understanding of the motivations of all the people involved. Tsarist Russia throughout those years had used pogroms and other oppressive means to distract their restive populace from expressing their discontent with their poor lot in other ways.
To just lay the blame on one individual, is not taking into consideration all the oppression and pogroms instigated by the Tsars and the Russian government that caused mass immigration from the Russian empire in the 1800s.
Further to suggest that that one individual was of Jewish origin - sounds like blaming the victim for his own persecution. Such an attitude only adds insult to injury.
Please don't hesitate to write back if I can be of any further help.
Best wishes,
Simcha Bart
Chabad.org
- III
- Me to Simcha Bart
- 3/11/2022 at 5:29 PM
- Re: Chabad.org: Feedback { Ref. No. 5588688 }
- There are other cases where I am very positive that the "blood libel" actually covers a misdeed done by Jews.
Let's take St. Simon of Trent.
There was a small Jewish community there, he went to play with them, he reappeared dead with the blood emptied as with a Jewish slaughter and with the throat slit accordingly, and I think that the latter was also the case with the boy in the Beilis case.
That's why I'm concerned about the origins of Vera Cheberiak.
In one other case, there seems to be an exoneration - Bl. Andrew of Rinn. No cut throat, but hung, and the only one to have seen the Jews (if any) was the uncle who is somewhat suspect to me.
With the boy from Bloys, I think we may have had to do with a kidnap, and the Christian boy taken away from Christian parents to be raised Jewish.
My theory of why this happened has something to do with whether the boys themselves (perhaps not Bl. Andrew, where Jews may have not been involved) had Jewish origins. No Sanhedrin, however rogue, would in a non-Hebrew country condemn any boy to death for the "crime of Christianity" if he were a goy. Or would they? I think such reactions can only be explained for Holy Land and if the boy was of Jewish origin.
You see, I don't see that the Jews were just helplessly taking persecution and not retaliating. Whether the persecution was real or apparent, merited or not.
So, I'd agree with you, killing a Christian boy is not a regular part of the Jewish religion. But it could nevertheless have been a recurring part of Jewish politics against Christians.
Hans Georg Lundahl
- IV
- Simcha Bart to me
- 3/11/2022 at 6:16 PM
- Chabad.org: Feedback { Ref. No. 5588688 }
- B"H
Hi Hans Georg,
There is no evidence for that blood libel either - that's why it's a libel, a complete fabrication. Just because a Christian institution decided to make the child a Saint - does not mean anything historically or factually.
The fact that you are "very positive" is not proof. I'm sure all of those who murdered and maimed thousands, if not tens of thousands of Jews throughout history - were "very positive" that Jews were guilty of all sorts of terrible things.
It is normal when looking back at history to try to justify what occurred then - but that tendency to whitewash and excuse terrible attacks against innocent men, women, and children is in itself bowing to evil.
That is how people come to justify and whitewash the murder of six million Jews by the Germans and their cohorts in other countries. People can't believe that there's such cruelty in the world - so they find it easier to blame the victim, especially if the victims are Jews, than to blame those who hate Jews.
The Church has instituted Jew hatred on an unprecedented scale.
Rome and christianity has been responsible for more deaths and displacements, tortures etc. of Jews throughout Jewish history, than any one other group or nation!
I never knew my grandparents, or most of my parents' families - because they were Jewish the vast majority of my fathers' family were placed against a wall by Nazis, who were practicing christians, and shot. Except for my father, only 2 cousins in his huge family survived their persecution!
No one nation or culture, whether ancient Egypt, Babylon, or Rome, to 20th century Germany, has killed as many Jews as christians and christians churches have!
To begin this journey of discovery of the macabre history of christianity, please see James Carroll's Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews -- A History, written by a former christian clergyman.
You may also want to read The Anguish of the Jews: Twenty-Three Centuries of Antisemitism by Edward H. Flannery - another clergyman. I have not read this book but I picked up the following about it.
At the beginning, the author states that most of even well educated Christians have been in the dark about what has happened to the Jews throughout history and the Church's responsibility. The book covers anti-Semitism in all it's many forms, including persecution, torture, pogroms, massacres, social degradations, forced baptisms & conversions throughout the many periods of the Diaspora.
You are also encouraged to look at the book of John, and his hatred of the Jews. Then read the Homilies of Chrysostom. And here is something from Martin Luther as well:
"What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we cannot tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. . . . .We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. . . . .
"Let me give you my honest advice:
"First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our LORD and of Christendom.
"Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed.
"Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.
"Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb.
"Fifth, I advise that safe conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let them stay at home. [We might well ask "What home?", since they were all presumably burned in point two!]
"Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them, and put aside for safe keeping.
"Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hand of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow."
Please don't hesitate to write back if I can be of any further help.
Best wishes,
Simcha Bart
Chabad.org
Sent from my mobile device, please excuse any typos.
- V
- Me to Simcha Bart
- 3/12/2022 at 1:04 PM
- Re: Chabad.org: Feedback { Ref. No. 5588688 }
- Look at the attack of the Synagogue of York.
Then look at who killed the children inside - yes, the fathers, to spare them the "horror" of being baptised. They also killed their wives and themselves / each other Masada style.
"The Church has instituted Jew hatred on an unprecedented scale."
Very much on the contrary, Jews have instituted the first hatred of the Church and have continued, and the Church has not been generous with retaliation./HGL
- VI
- Simcha Bart to me
- 3/13/2022 at 3:10 AM
- Chabad.org: Feedback { Ref. No. 5588688 }
- B"H
Hi Hans Georg,
Please read the two books which I told you about by people from within the Church.
Please don't hesitate to write back if I can be of any further help.
Best wishes,
Simcha Bart
Chabad.org
Sent from my mobile device, please excuse any typos.
The joyous holiday of Purim begins this Wednesda evening, March 16 through Thursday, March 17 (March 18 in Jerusalem).
Check out https://chabad.org/purim for everything need for Purim!
- VII
- Me to Simcha Bart
- 3/14/2022 at 8:53 PM
- Re: Chabad.org: Feedback { Ref. No. 5588688 }
- As for St. John Chrysostom, he lived in a time when Jews were bad.
As for Martin Luther - he was bad. He got expelled from the Church for it.
- VIII
- Simcha Bart to me
- 3/15/2022 at 12:44 AM
- Chabad.org: Feedback { Ref. No. 5588688 }
- B"H
Hi Hans Georg,
We won't get anywhere like this, as there's no way to settle such an argument.
Just as you think that Luther was bad - I think that about anyone in the Church who said, and ultimately caused, pogroms, ghettos, and the Holocaust. Regardless of the Church considers them a "saint".
I say Luther and John are all wrong about the Jews - period.
Please don't hesitate to write back if I can be of any further help.
Best wishes,
Simcha Bart
Chabad.org
Sent from my mobile device, please excuse any typos.
The joyous holiday of Purim begins this Wednesday evening, March 16 through Thursday, March 17 (March 18 in Jerusalem).
Check out https://chabad.org/purim for everything need for Purim!
- IX
- Me to Simcha Bart
- 3/15/2022 at 11:16 AM
- Re: Chabad.org: Feedback { Ref. No. 5588688 }
- There is a kind of Jews I think you won't frequent. The kind who get into astrology, sexology and give Christians or secularised such lots of bad tips on living, or good tips on sex life, depending on your point of view.
Those are THE exact kind of Jews St. John Chrysostom had in mind.
Sure, he used hard language about rejecting the true Messiah as well, but he did not have to do with The Black Hundreds, and it's not his fault that some of the people who actually did commit pogroms were quotemining him.
Luther is something else, he was against Jews, rebellious farmers, and Catholic clergy remaining faithful to the Church. And he did foment violence (directly with rebellious farmers, by clumsiness at least in the other cases) in his own lifetime. Blaming Catholics for his faults is like blaming you on Chabad for Baruch Spinoza's heresies ...
Hans Georg Lundahl
- X
- Simcha Bart to me
- 3/16/2022 at 6:00 AM
- Chabad.org: Feedback { Ref. No. 5588688 }
- B"H
Hi Hans Georg,
I think we will just be going around in circles, as you have your convictions and I have mine.
I believe that even though Luther broke away from Catholicism - he was drawing on his what he grew up with. You will most probably disagree with me.
I believe that the Spanish Inquisition, as well as the Crusades, and various pogroms were all created by Church teachings - you may disagree.
So where does that leave us? You can read the books I recommended, or not. But until you do, I do not see how we can have a productive dialogue.
At the moment then, it looks to me that our conversation about this topic is at an end.
Best wishes,
Simcha Bart
Chabad.org
Sent from my mobile device, please excuse any typos.
The joyous holiday of Purim begins this Wednesday evening, March 16 through Thursday, March 17 (March 18 in Jerusalem).
Check out https://chabad.org/purim for everything need for Purim!
- XI
- Me to Simcha Bart
- 3/16/2022 at 3:04 PM
- Re: Chabad.org: Feedback { Ref. No. 5588688 }
- I think you just gave those books a very scathing review:
"I believe that the Spanish Inquisition, as well as the Crusades, and various pogroms were all created by Church teachings - you may disagree."
If this is what you get from these books, you and they have a problem.
If I recommended you read "Dictionnaire Apologétique de la Foi Catholique" and its articles on the Jews, would you?
I believe the Inquisition and the Crusades were very well created by Church teachings - and that neither of them targetted Jews as Jews (crypto-Jews are another context).
I also believe no pogroms were created by Church teaching, note well, Roman Catholic one. They were indeed punishable by the Church authorities, and most notably by the Inquisition.
A book that ties Crusades, Inquisition, Spanish or other, to pogroms, or even two of them, is, to my mind, out of court.
Crusades targetted non-Christian political powers, as per Church doctrine, and in the first crusade, some of the popular support came to target Jews as an Ersatz for actual Sarrasins, despite it (and Peter the Hermit left the Crusade after he had seen this happening), but this was not the cause with the lords' crusade or later crusades.
The Inquisitions before the Spanish one had no task of targetting crypto-Jews, and even the Spanish one wasn't targetting open Jews (while at a certain moment, the political power, drawing on history about the Moorish invasion, did).
Pogroms are rare in the West outside certain precise contexts:
- in response to at least purported killings of children, early on in England
- in the Germanies when no Kaiser was around (both Rex Rintfleisch and Hitler)
- in the Germanies in the Alemannic area, which came, like Luther, to mostly leave Catholicism.
"I believe that even though Luther broke away from Catholicism - he was drawing on his what he grew up with."
Yes and no.
What he believed about Jews may have been 100 % what Catholics then and there believed, and perhaps as much as 90 % of it actual Church doctrine.
How and when he expressed it (in 1536) was however not a question of Catholic pastoral.
He was actually drawing on what he grew up with in 1514 (while still a Catholic) and saying:
Conversion of the Jews will be the work of God alone operating from within, and not of man working — or rather playing — from without. If these offences be taken away, worse will follow. For they are thus given over by the wrath of God to reprobation, that they may become incorrigible, as Ecclesiastes says, for every one who is incorrigible is rendered worse rather than better by correction. (1)
And even just after the break, 1519 and 23:
"Absurd theologians defend hatred for the Jews. ... What Jew would consent to enter our ranks when he sees the cruelty and enmity we wreak on them—that in our behavior towards them we less resemble Christians than beasts?" (2)
"If I had been a Jew and had seen such dolts and blockheads govern and teach the Christian faith, I would sooner have become a hog than a Christian. They have dealt with the Jews as if they were dogs rather than human beings; they have done little else than deride them and seize their property. When they baptize them they show them nothing of Christian doctrine or life, but only subject them to popishness and mockery...If the apostles, who also were Jews, had dealt with us Gentiles as we Gentiles deal with the Jews, there would never have been a Christian among the Gentiles ... When we are inclined to boast of our position [as Christians] we should remember that we are but Gentiles, while the Jews are of the lineage of Christ. We are aliens and in-laws; they are blood relatives, cousins, and brothers of our Lord. Therefore, if one is to boast of flesh and blood the Jews are actually nearer to Christ than we are...If we really want to help them, we must be guided in our dealings with them not by papal law but by the law of Christian love. We must receive them cordially, and permit them to trade and work with us, that they may have occasion and opportunity to associate with us, hear our Christian teaching, and witness our Christian life. If some of them should prove stiff-necked, what of it? After all, we ourselves are not all good Christians either." (3)
His book Of the Jews and their Lies is from 1536, believed to be influenced by Anton Margaritha, a convert from Judaism who (like the parents of Cantor and Marx) became a Lutheran.
I'm giving the source wikipedia and the sources it gave:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_and_antisemitism
- 1. Martin Luther, "Luther to George Spalatin Archived 2007-07-02 at the Wayback Machine," in Luther's Correspondence and Other Contemporaneous Letters, trans. Henry Preserved Smith (Philadelphia: Lutheran Publication Society, 1913), 1:29.
- 2. Luther quoted in Elliot Rosenberg, But Were They Good for the Jews? (New York: Birch Lane Press, 1997), p.65.
- 3. Martin Luther, "That Jesus Christ was Born a Jew," Trans. Walter I. Brandt, in Luther's Works (Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1962), pp. 200–201, 229.
- XII
- Me to Simcha Bart
- 3/16/2022 at 3:09 PM
- Re: Chabad.org: Feedback { Ref. No. 5588688 }
- Here Luther was NOT drawing on what he had learnt as a Catholic before the break:
In the treatise, he argues that Jewish synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes burned, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[2] afforded no legal protection,[3] and "these poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time.[4] He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[W]e are at fault in not slaying them".[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies
It was more probably popular demand, of the type that Luther had equally pandered to when denouncing Catholic beggar monks (as early as 95 theses)./HGL
Epilogue:
It seems I either forgot to answer or lost my mail to Simcha about "the book of John".
I celebrated St. Patrick and not Purim. This was perhaps the reason why certain things happened./HGL
