"Course of Abiah" — I am referring to a Defense of Christmas, Defending the Sinlessness of the Blessed Virgin

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Me to Edward Bromfield

12/21/2023 at 1:48 AM

Course of Abiah

I prefer Kurt Simmons' take over yours:

Answering Tovia Singer on December 25 · Sharing on December 25, Kurt Simmons

However, I find it interesting that you said this on a related topic:

The first greeting was given to Gideon, whom God called to be a deliverer of Israel, while the second was used by Boaz who was to act as a kinsman redeemer for Naomi and Ruth, and such was to be the case of Jesus especially for Israel, but also for the world.

There is another "Gideon" connexion.

There are exacly 3 women in a full Bible (or 2 in a 66 book one) who are called in some sense "blessed among women" ...

1) Jael (Judges 5)
2) Judith (Judith 13, lacking in 66-book Bibles)
3) The Blessed Virgin Mary (twice in Luke 1, by Gabriel and by Elisabeth).

Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.

I take that as referring to the words, not to hearing a voice without seeing anyone.

If your mother had been ever greeted with words like "congratulations for killing Sisera" ... how would she have reacted.

I bet she might have been a bit ... puzzled.

So, when the cousin tells Her the same again, but this time involves Jesus, the Genesis 3:15 reference is very much more apparent.

Note, Mary had "killed Sisera" even before being pregnant, and as per Luke 1:42 -- Genesis 3:15, the only "Sisera" that would qualify was Satan.

So, how could She, even without yet having been with child with God inside Her, have already "killed" Satan?

Well, the one possibility that comes to mind is, She must have been sinless. Reversed already in Her person the agency of Eve and Adam.

Remark the difference in mood between being told She is Mother of God and being told She is sinless (second time, and getting it this time). She was obviously happier at always having done the will of the Father, than at Her breasts were going to suckle God in the Flesh. On a famous occasion, Her Son echoed that sense of priorities.

Hans Georg Lundahl

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Edward Bromfield to me

12/21/2023 at 6:42 AM

Re: Course of Abiah

Greetings Hans-Georg Lundal, and thank you for reading my studies and for your email/comment. Lord bless you.

You said: “I prefer Kurt Simmons' take over yours:” with the link, Answering Tovia Singer on December 25 · Sharing on December 25, Kurt Simmons

That’s fine; we don’t have to agree on everything. Then you thought it interesting that the greeting that Mary received from Gabriel may also be found in Judges 6:12 and Ruth 2:4, which you used to point to another ‘connection’ in Judges. In a similar form the phrase: “blessed among women” can be found in Judges 5:24, but since I do use the accepted 66 books, I didn’t find the ‘Judith’ connection.

Then you said: “Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be.” – “I take that as referring to the words, not to hearing a voice without seeing anyone.

I agree with you that Mary was troubled by the angel’s words, and I believe what I said later in the study shows that. My point here was to differentiate between what troubled Mary and Zechariah. He was troubled over the “appearance” of an angel, which according to Daniel was a fearful thing to behold. Mary, however, wasn’t troubled with an “appearance” according to the text but with what she heard. Words, yes, but my point here was to show Mary did not have a vision. She had to deal only with what the angel said, and his saying did trouble her.

You lose me with the mention of “Mary had "killed Sisera" even before being pregnant, and as per Luke 1:42 -- Genesis 3:15, the only "Sisera" that would qualify was Satan.”

At first, I found you hard to follow at this point and was about to send for clarification, but before I sent the email, I had a thought. You seem to be replacing Jael with Mary and making this point to Genesis 3:15. How you can say that Mary slew Satan prior to her pregnancy is troubling. I don’t see that. However, I have two points to make here. Genesis 3:15 doesn’t point to “Mary” Jesus’ mother. Instead, it points to the “Woman” in Revelation 12 who brought forth the child. The “Woman” is a **sign** or a constellation in the heavens, Virgo. The mother of Christ was the Jews, believing Jews, and as Paul said to the Roman church: “And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly” (Romans 16:20).

Genesis 3:15 has more to do with the Church than it does with Mary. Both are considered to be Jesus’ “mother,” according to the scriptures.

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Me to Edward Bromfield

12/21/2023 at 7:01 AM

Re: Course of Abiah

"You seem to be replacing Jael with Mary"

The angel and Elisabeth seem to be doing that!

Blessed among women be Jahel the wife of Haber the Cinite, and blessed be she in her tent.
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

"Genesis 3:15 has more to do with the Church than it does with Mary. Both are considered to be Jesus’ “mother,” according to the scriptures"

Can you give an example?

And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.

Note the future tense.

The "blessed among women" is a title up to then belonging to one or two heroines who had already killed an enemy of Israel.

Hans Georg Lundahl

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Edward Bromfield to me

12/21/2023 at 3:53 PM

Re: Course of Abiah

Good morning Hans-Georg,

Concerning replacing Jael with Mary, you said: “The angel and Elisabeth seem to be doing that!”

I don’t think so. This is how you interpret the two events, which, by the way, are not similar events.

I said: “Genesis 3:15 has more to do with the Church than it does with Mary. Both are considered to be Jesus’ “mother,” according to the scriptures.”

You said: “Can you give an example?”

I did give an example from scripture, but you don’t accept it. Nevertheless, you don’t seem to play by the rules you set for me. What is your example that Mary’s name should be applied to Judges 5:24, 26? Where is the evidence in scripture that she had “already killed an enemy of Israel?”

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Me to Edward Bromfield

12/21/2023 at 8:26 PM

Re: Course of Abiah

In Judges 5:24
a) the phrase (very rare in the Bible, only parallels in Judith and in Luke 1) "blessed among women" is used
b) in Judges 5, as well as in Judith, this highly rare phrase was only applied to a woman who had already killed an enemy of Israel, not to someone who was going to

"I did give an example from scripture"

You didn't explicitate that you meant the occasion of Mark 3.

And in Mark 3:35, I hold, with the Church that Christ founded, that "my mother" actually does refer to the Blessed Virgin.

If you meant Romans 16:20, the glaring difference is tense.

"shall bruise ... briefly" is not the same as "has already killed" implicit in the parallels (the only ones) for the title twice given the Blessed Virgin, namely blessed among women.

Good evening, by the way, from my pov!

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Edward Bromfield to me

12/21/2023 at 11:12 PM

Re: Course of Abiah

Good evening Hans-Georg; you said: “the phrase (very rare in the Bible, only parallels in Judith and in Luke 1) "blessed among women" is used…”

We agree that the phrase occurs only three times, if we include the extrabiblical, Judith.

“in Judges 5, as well as in Judith, this highly rare phrase was only applied to a woman who had already killed an enemy of Israel, not to someone who was going to…”

I’ll take your word for the ‘Judith’ occurrence, the phrase in the Old Covenant text concerns a woman who had already slain a man.

“You didn't explicitate that you meant the occasion of Mark 3. And in Mark 3:35, I hold, with the Church that Christ founded, that "my mother" actually does refer to the Blessed Virgin.”

I’m getting the impression that you are Roman Catholic. If this is correct, I don’t mean to attack what you believe. I was born Roman Catholic, but I’m not now. Most of my family is Catholic, so I don’t make a point to put Catholicism down, nor would I seek to embarrass anyone who holds to the beliefs of Catholicism. That said, I disagree with your interpretation of Mark 3:35. However, as I mentioned in the beginning, we don’t have to agree on everything to be brethren.

“If you meant Romans 16:20, the glaring difference is tense. "shall bruise ... briefly" is not the same as "has already killed" implicit in the parallels (the only ones) for the title twice given the Blessed Virgin, namely blessed among women.”

We agree that the tense is future in Romans 16:20, but why would you think otherwise for Mary, if, indeed, she were to crush the head of Satan? Moreover, if your interpretation is true, what does Paul mean in Romans 16:20: “And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly,” if Satan’s head was already crushed by Mary?

Lord bless you, Hans-Georg, as you think upon these things.

VII

Me to Edward Bromfield

12/22/2023 at 9:50 AM

Re: Course of Abiah

Satan is not a mortal.

He was / will be crushed three times:

1) By the sinlessness of Mary prior to the pregnancy
2) By the sinlessness of Jesus and Mary up to the Cross and to Jesus descending into Hades
3) By the triumph of the Church after Harmageddon, which seems to be what St. Paul is referring to.

Satan as said is not mortal, and does not disappear from existence just because he's crushed, but he can be defeated even if already damned, and these three crushings are beyond how St. Michael threw him into Hell.

I think that answers your question.

Hans Georg Lundahl

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Edward Bromfield to me

12/22/2023 at 1:11 PM

Re: Course of Abiah

Thank your Hans-Georg, and may the Lord bless and protect you always.

Your brother in Christ,

Eddie

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Me to Edward Bromfield

12/22/2023 at 3:54 PM

Re: Course of Abiah

Thank you.

May I feature our correspondence on a blog of mine, each mail marked out separately for the correct limits?

And, best wishes for the day that actually is the real day when Christ was born!

Hans Georg Lundahl

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Edward Bromfield to me

12/22/2023 at 4:45 PM

Re: Course of Abiah

Merry Christmas, Hans-Georg, and Lord bless you. I have no problem with what you wish to do with our discussion. You may do whatever you please with it.

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Me to Edward Bromfield

12/22/2023 at 7:03 PM

Re: Course of Abiah

Thank you very much!

Richest possible blessings, and Merry Christmas, whenever you celebrate it!

Hans Georg Lundahl