Me and Damien Mackey on Historicity of Iliad and Odyssey

Me to Damien Mackey

"On 13 October 2017 at 01:56"
(Australian timezone)

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

Er ... no.

Iliad and Odyssey = events of Iliad and Odyssey + tradition fairly well preserved but mixing details (anything to do directly with Hittes "reedited" to suit a historiography without them) + Homer formulating this into two poems + tradition after Homer identifying these poems as real events of the real past of these peoples.

In the case of Deucalion, I have to say he is based on Noah (at least as far as world wideness of Flood is concerned) and probably also Abraham and Lot : the real stories of these are not only there, but there is a very good reason for each of these both to be somewhat known to early Greeks, but also to be misconstrued more than usual in history.

In the case of Iliad and Odyssey there is no such reason.

There is however, if they are taken as literal and (mostly) factual history of events (mostly) geographically and temporally set where they are set two good lessons:

* Ulysses, Penelope, Suitors : the situation of Christ, Church and Antichrist up to and in Harmageddon, prophecy granted to Pagan stories;
* Agamemnon having defeated Trojan troops one day wanted to enroll the aid of Sun in totally routing them before they could get back into Troy : he failed, but he could very well have heard about the solar miracle of Joshua.

The now known Greek story about a solar miracle one generation before Agamemnon could be conflated with observations of Sun going back twenty or ten or whatever lines for a King of Judah. And obviously, appropriation for family matters of Agamemnon's family would perhaps be due to Agamemnon being as much of a single ruler of Greece (except Athens and Thebes, basically) as Stalin was of Soviet Union.

Traditionally, both George Syncellus and Peter Comestor place time of Trojan War when Eli was judging Israel.

Hans Georg Lundahl

Damien Mackey to me

10/12/17 at 11:18 PM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

Agamemnon could have hear about the miracle of Joshua if Agamemnon had really existed.

Me to Damien Mackey

10/13/17 at 9:11 AM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

You are very eager to deny historical existence of characters outside the Bible, and by doing so, you denigrate the general reliability of tradition : which makes reliability of Bible a miracle ONLY to be put down to divine inerrancy.

By doing so, you are excluding historic facts of the Bible from the motiva credibilitatis.

Yes, Agamemnon existed and so did Ulysses.

BECAUSE (to us Christians) so did Joseph and Moses.

Yes, Trojan War occurred, and so did Ulysses' homecoming.

BECAUSE so did Exodus and the Resurrection.

Damien Mackey to me

10/14/17 at 1:13 AM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

Yeah, you're probably right, Odysseus (Ulysses) would almost certainly have encountered a giant Cyclops, and a witch, Circe, and Poseidon god of the sea, and would have seen his sailors turned into animals, and so on.
How could I have missed all of this solid history?

D.M.

Me to Damien Mackey

10/16/17 at 10:10 AM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

From the story of Theseus and Hippolytus, I gather Poseidon is a demon.

Before studying Greek, I was unaware of the demonic and very obviously so in Greek and Roman myth. Poseidon (but that is more for Hippolytus' story) can be historical because he can be a demon. So is obviously Delphic Apollo : the kind of demon which St Paul is known to have exorcised.

Circe and Cyclops are, certainly, not the most solidly backed parts of the story. Considering they are part of what there is one witness only to, that witness being Ulysses, one could even conjecture Ulysses had lied about them. Note, conjecture. Because unlike Poseidon as "god of the sea", like Poseidon and Apollo as demons, they are within the realms of what a Christian can consider possible. Not indeed Circe turning any man into swine, but she could have pretended to and changed looks and behaviour. That is within capabilities both of the demonic and even the hypnotic - if strong enough.

And Callypso being a goddess was fairly handy as an excuse before Penelope.

Returning to incidents as witnessed by more than one man, and not just Ulysses, and not just set on Mount Olympus or otherwise behind the scenes (as "theological" interpretation), they are not incredible. I am trying to figure out a way in which a witch or make up artist could have helped Ulysses ... probably he would have been in the know, if it was a priestess to Athena, he would perhaps have anonymised that as calling her Athena in person.

I also wonder how you could have missed solid history which is accepted by the Church, or mostly, thoughout history.

I mean, as mentioned, Peter Comestor and George Syncellus are a clear reflection of Church historiography of early second and mid first millennium. They set Trojan War into the time when Eli was judging Israel.

Incidentia.
In diebus Heli fuit tertius rex Latinorum Silvius posthumius filius Aeneae, et Laviniae, a quo deinceps Latini reges Silvii denominati sunt. Hunc Ascanius haeredem reliquit adhuc parvulo filio suo Julio, a quo Juliorum familia et originem traxit et nomen. Hectoris filii Ilium receperunt, expulsis posteris Nestoris.

https://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Historia_Scholastica/I_Kings#Incidentia.

And here I give two of the famous boring carbon levels, but look at what Syncellus puts into the years between them:

XIII 1190 BC
96.376 pmc, + 310 years, 1500 BC
1189 BC
Agamemnon becomes king of Mycenae and of Argives
1172 BC
Syncellus' date for taking of Troy.
1166 BC
Orestes becomes king of Mycenae and of Argives
1161 BC
Aeneas becomes king of Latins
1158 BC
... and three years later Ascanius follows him
1151 BC
Eli is Judge
1128 BC
Samuel is Judge
1112 BC
Syncellus places the election of Saul
1072 BC
King David
1032 BC
King Solomon
XIV 1017 BC
97.486 pmc, + 210 years, 1227 BC

http://creavsevolu.blogspot.fr/2017/03/about-5300-years-ago-there-was-world.html

Exactly, Syncellus puts Agamamnon, taking of Troy, Orestes and Aeneas and Ascanius in the years before Eli becomes judge of Israel.

So, how could you have missed all this solid history?

As I don't know the exact answer, how about you reflect on it a bit yourself?

And if I gave my own blog as reference, it is because the reference to Syncellus is to a whole book which a Catholic priest wrote about Syncellus' chronography, including all the tables, if you wish to consult it, here it is:

https://ia801406.us.archive.org/1/items/chronographia01syncgoog/chronographia01syncgoog.pdf

But I have seriously forgotten which page it was for 1189 BC and so on.

Cheers!

Damien Mackey to me

10/16/17 at 11:51 PM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

Like with just about everything, the Greeks pinched their ideas from the Hebrews, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Mesopotamians.
And so their god, Poseidon, is a coastal Phoenician god of the sea, Poseidon meaning "He of Sidon".

Me to Damien Mackey

10/17/17 at 10:33 AM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

Little correction.

Mykenean Greek for Poseidon is Potei Daon*. Potei is dative case of a word meaning "lord", "master" or "husband".

So, since Daon is suspiciously like Dagon, I translate Poseidon as "Lord Dagon", possibly even "Baal Dagon", depending in what your expertise in Hebrew considers apt or less apt to equate above definitition of potis with Baal.

Now, for the main argument : yes, Poseidon as usually worshipped by Greeks was pinched from Phoenicians.

This does not mean that the theophany** of Poseidon to "his son" Theseus at Troizen and the later theophany when Theseus required as the wish granted at Troizen the killing of his own son, nor that the killing of Hippolytus by horses after this second theophany are events pinched from Phoenicians.

As to Poseidon in Odyssey, he plays a much less human role, more like personification of the elements of the sea. Meaning, Ulysses who was the generation after Theseus and also worshipped "Lord Dagon" erroneously imagined that "Lord Dagon" was after him.

This does not in any way shape or form imply that the exposure of Ulysses to the elements was also imaginary.

If I for instance imagine my prolonged poverty is kind of due to some Illuminati deal with Rosicrucians imposed on Catholics via their Jewish and Muslim ecumenic contacts, this may, theoretically, be an error on my part, an only imagined intrigue, but this does not mean I don't exist or that I have not been impoverished despite writing for 13 years after second or third interruption of my studies.

I do exist, I am impoverished, whether the Illuminati intrigue exists or not. Ulysses arguably did exist and was on several trips between Troy and Ithaca exposed to waves and even to shipwreck - like later St Paul on Malta.

Your kind of "X resembles Y, but Y is a myth, therefore X is a myth" can be taken one step further, and claim St Paul in Acts was a myth too, plagiarised from Ulysses' lore. And early part of Acts could be considered as part plagiarism of Iliad, part plagiarism of Socrates, if you like that kind of game.

Therefore, I obviously as a Christian do NOT like that kind of game.

Hence my little impatience with your revisionism about historic existence of Agamemnon./HGL

* You tend to pronounce it po-SEY-don, but it is in Classical Greek more like po-sey-DAWN or even po-see-DAWN. The last syllable being a contraction of Daon.

** Note with regards to such theophanies, that St Paul had an apt word about them in II Corinthians 11.

Update:

Damien Mackey to me

10/18/17 at 1:29 AM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

I think Pa Sidon sounds much more like the name of the god, Poseidon, than does Potty Dagon.

Me to Damien Mackey

10/18/17 at 11:11 AM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

Sorry, doesn't cut it.

Potei Daon is an attested form from Linear B Greek.

Also, Sidon does not explain the diphthong.

Σιδῶνα - Genesis 10:15 in LXX.

Ποσειδώνας ( καθ. Ποσειδῶν ) - checking wiki for that false god and καθ. = katharévousa.

You clearly have an ei. Unexplained by Σιδῶνα as mentioned. Note, last -α is an accusative ending. In nominative, the Chanaanite tribe and the city is Σιδῶν.

Also, name Poseidon (Doric Poteidan) - the Doric name keeps the t./HGL

PS, you might want to check out this:

[linking here :)
http://correspondentia-ioannis-georgii.blogspot.fr/2017/10/me-and-damien-mackey-on-historicity-of.html

Damien Mackey to me

10/19/17 at 4:37 AM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

Now you're dipping into Doric Greek. That's impressive!
You may be right, then, that Pa Sidon is not adequate.

Me to Damien Mackey

10/19/17 at 12:05 PM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

Nevertheless, it seems to have sometimes been an accepted etymology, I had a reference from 1777 - by one less good in Doric and unaware of Mycenean Greek.

In French, in his time, the standard form was "Posidon".

Damien Mackey to me

10/19/17 at 11:24 PM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

That doesn't make Odysseus real, however, much of "The Odyssey" having been pinched from Tobit-Job.

And, for stunning further Greek (Homeric) appropriations of the Bible (Agamemnon's "Deceiving Dream" from King Ahab's Lying Spirit), see attached.

[Attachment momentarily unavailable in this library. Can't be opened in that format]

Me to Damien Mackey

10/20/17 at 9:04 AM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

Attachment will not open in this library.

If you play the "piched from" game, how do you prove Acts was not pinched from a combination of:

• Iliad
• Odyssey
• Aeneid
• and both beginning and end, Socrates
• all served with a little sauce of local Hebrew culture and prophecy?

If you answer : the Church recalls otherwise, then I answer, thye Greeks recall otherwise than you suggest.

I have suggested that Deucalion is a mix of stories we find in the Bible, but Deucalion is proto-history, not history of the period Greek heroic legend.

Also, real story of Flood precludes polytheism, and if Josephus is correct, also the Greek penchant (since poor old Hercules, I suppose) for sodomy. Stories of Abraham and Sarah, Lot and his daughters are even more reprehending against the vice probably committted by Hercules with Iolaus. They also involve the divine actually being on the side of ordinary fertility : Abraham and Sarah don't have to throw stones behind shoulders to get Isaac.

And the stones being "bones of mother earth" refers doubly to Lot's daughters leaving their mother behind as a pile of a type of earth and to Adam being told "of earth thou art, to earth thou shalt return".

The point is, we have a serious Greek difficulty with accepting the full story, and the world wide Flood happened only once.

However, after Adam's sin, a man having a claim to be called polytlas (having borne much [suffering]) is not so unique that Job and Odyssey, Tobit anbd Odyssey could not both be true.

Same goes for a young man in a hopeless situation at home and gaining through a voyage (Telemach and young Tobit). If Telemach stories are all or most copied from Tobit, how come not most stories in Grimm and Afanasiev (or some of the most memorable ones) are also all copied from Tobit?

And Ivan Czarevich went on his horse and rode through 29 kingdoms and 30 countries (sounds, geographically, like Satrapies of Persia). Every single time just because of young Tobit? Never any other person who lived such a life?

I'd like a theological rationale for that one!

Now, Ivan and Hans and a few more are admittedly fairy tales, i e, unlike heroic legend, not attached to known historic timelines (or even semiknown ones). But supposing each Märchen we have is influenced by Tobit (or about half of those in Grimm and Afanasiev) supposes the peasants had often enough heard of Tobit in Church - and maybe they had in Christian countries like Germany or Russia (as it was under the Czars).

But the Greeks were not hearing Tobit read in Church, unless you want to argue they are part of the ten lost tribes. So, with Odyssey, it is clearly less likely.

Damien Mackey to me

10/21/17 at 12:45 AM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

See:

"Bible Illuminates History & Philosophy. Part Twenty Four: Fiery Prophet Elijah (iv): Death of King Ahab (continued)"
https://www.academia.edu/34894894/Bible_Illuminates_History_and_Philosophy._Part_Twenty_Four_Fiery_Prophet_Elijah_iv_Death_of_King_Ahab_continued_

and also

"'Homeric' borrowings from life of King Saul"
https://www.academia.edu/34902603/Homeric_borrowings_from_life_of_King_Saul?campaign=upload_email

Me to Damien Mackey

10/21/17 at 12:23 PM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

Will have a look.

After taking

a look, I made a new reply:

Me to Damien Mackey

10/21/17 at 12:27 PM

Iliad and Odyssey = Biblical characters?

The Global Flood happened only once.

Even so, Deucalion can be from a later local one in Thessaly, as many Catholic authors have mentioned, as well as Ogyges from a local one. But what parallels Noah too closely are memories of Noah - not necessarily through Bible tex[t]!

Enticing dreams and lying spirits can certainly have happened to both Agamemnon and Ahab.

This means the parallel is no proof of "two accounts of same event" nor of one indebted to the other.