Continuing with BG, trying to bring in history, getting a few dialogues on moral issues.

HGL's F.B. writings : 1) Marital Age and Teen Abortions ; 2) Previous Continued ; Correspondence of Hans Georg Lundahl : 3) Continuing with BG, trying to bring in history, getting a few dialogues on moral issues. ; New blog on the kid : Are Satanists Very Moral?

Date and time:

Ember Sabbath of Pentecost Octave, 21.V.2016. Between 14:16 and 16:41 Paris time.

Participants:

Myself, shortened to HGL for a show of equality, because BG is shortened to BG for protection of his anonymity. He's a British Social Worker, a Catholic (if you call Novus Ordos so) and an older acquaintance of mine. In contexts other than this question, he might seem pro-life.

HGL

I think a thread where we were debating some stats was taken down from a wall, where we were doing so.

You studied, as far as I can see, censuses and after the Industrial revolution (earliest 1856? or was that the second?).

You also stated that earlier 30 was a normal age at death.

Well, it is still a normal or even high age of death for someone having diabetes type I [type 1] and no treatment.

So, let's consider examples further back, shall we, both age at death and, for girls, age at marriage.

Is that OK?

BG

ITs a no-go zone for me Hans
the age of consent, i strongly support this
i'm a socail worker
i have dealt with HUGE numbers of sex offenders who have developed arguments in favour of lowering the age of consent

HGL

OK.

You are a social worker?

How many children AND TEENS have you separated from their parents "for their own good"?

And what are social workers doing with sex offenders?

I thought that was for policemen and for judges, for prisons and so on.

Even if you happen to be against discussing main theme, what about supporting your little tidbits of very selective facts? Like going outside your little charmed circle?

One more thing, if you get one thing from your experience as a social worker and another from St Thomas Aquinas (will link below) which do you go by?

I thought you were Catholic, but to some nowadays, that's words wigthout content.

Article 5. Whether defective age is an impediment to marriage? - SUMMA THEOLOGICA: The...
[Is impotence an impediment to marriage? Is a spell? Is frenzy or madness? Is incest?] Is defective age?
http://newadvent.org/summa/5058.htm#article5

BG

several
I facilitate transition from home to independent living

[If it was in answer to "separated from parents" I meant from home to foster home or "homes" in the collective sense. Not to independent living.]

HGL

A little quote first:

"Article 5. Whether defective age is an impediment to marriage?"
Objection 1. It would seem that deficient age is not an impediment to marriage. For according to the laws children are under the care of a guardian until their twenty-fifth year. Therefore it would seem that before that age their reason is not sufficiently mature to give consent, and consequently that ought seemingly to be the age fixed for marrying. Yet marriage can be contracted before that age. Therefore lack of the appointed age is not an impediment to marriage.
Reply to Objection 1. In matters to which nature inclines there is not required such a development of reason in order to deliberate, as in other matters: and therefore it is possible after deliberation to consent to marriage before one is able to manage one's own affairs in other matters without a guardian.

BG

disabled and severely handicapped.
Home is the best place

HGL

"I facilitate transition from home to independent living" - oh, sex offenders in homes, why not prison?

[I still thought he meant homes in collective sense. Like where five to ten or fifteen teens live supervised by someone not their parent and not having full approval of parents either. Those are the kind of social workers I find most offensive.]

BG

but if they are to go independent its great that the family keep control over their needs and support
and also close by, to ensure they remain an integral part of family
no, i worked with parole service

HGL

ah

sex offenders on parole, ok

BG

they are individually able to give sufficient consent in degree
but i support the protection of children ie. under 18 given ...some protection
still i have never met a guy under 25 in prison for having ...sex with a girl between 13-18

HGL

St Thomas Aquinas thought a person should have some kind of parental protection up to 25.

However, not barring marriage at puberty.

BG

Hans- i suspect you've made up your mind on this through lots of wrestling in the mind
BUT take it from me mate
leave it alone
its not worth it
get on with living
and forget the case
sure, you have a point probably
and i think the consent age is fluid
with age and circumstances, education
but its not a good look to encourage the removal of consent age
a better cause might be to support greater safeguards for minors
so they can be children
this includes prosecuting parents who allow their children to use internet without supervision and safeguards

HGL

"consent age is fluid with age" - a great one.

Other point, I am NOT asking for consent age to be removed, but to be lowered back to where it was before it was heightened.

"minors, so they can be children"?

C'mon!

Teen depression cause one is treating physical adults as mental children.

[20] Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing to the Lord. [21] Fathers, provoke not your children to indignation, lest they be discouraged.
From Colossians ch. 3.

"prosecuting parents who allow their children to use internet without supervision and safeguards"

Even when nothing bad happens? Just because some social worker or teacher knows a child or even a "child" as in a teen has gone to a site he doesn't like?

What would happen if my blog (link below) were on your black list of paedo blogs, which it does not deserve, and a parent had allowed his teen girl to read it?

Would the parent be prosecuted for that?

HGL's F.B. writings
http://hglsfbwritings.blogspot.com

BG

its not a good look Hans--- this MUST be left to women
let them make the case, NOT you
I'm just protecting your reputation

HGL

"its not a good look Hans--- this MUST be left to women"

Some say that of abortion decision too, you know?

"let them make the case, NOT you"

I have let Amanda Lewin do her case with her name and LAG - you know who - anonymised under initials.

"I'm just protecting your reputation"

That is for me to do or not. You are not and hope will never be my legal guardian, as far as I know I am not under such a one.

I am 47.

People treating me as if I needed a guardian are precisely the kind of evil men who have stopped me from getting a wife.

Usually of age above 18. That's where I have usually looked, because under that age stopping it is so much easier. However, usually not above 30.

Now, that cleared up, or perhaps not, what about your stats

"I've checked many census in my studies and overall there is little variation. eg : 1863, Women: 21.0; Men 25.8, 1900 Women: 21.9; Men: 25.9, 1950 Women: 20.3; Men: 22.8; 1975 Women: 21.1; Men: 23.5"

What about checking Medieval examples?

"Of course in some places because of factors like land availability, disease- and mortality rate (30 was fairly normal age of death before 19th century)"

What proof have you of that?

Your own studies go back to after middle of that 19th C..

HGL (added later, after silence)

C'mon, you were arguing from history, is that less welcome when you have to do with a person having some knowledge of it?

BG

c'mon Hans- My wife is REALLY young asian chic-- and I can tell you its not fun married to a girl look elsewhere, find a mother!!!!

[laughing dog emoticon]

HGL

That was not what I was discussing.

I am trying to find a mother FOR MY CHILDREN to be.

Not for myself.

And a thousand men or women trying to act as if they could mother me, well that smothers me in the search.

If I married an age peer, I probably would get one who by lack of children of her own would start mothering me, and though I dearly love my mother, her mothering was enough, more of it by others starts getting smothering.

And you have still preferred talking TO me about ME, to talking WITH me about a historical SUBJECT.

Perhaps because you don't master it?

Hope your Asian chic reads this and gets a good laugh at her hubby!

BG

i love her, but i do not recommend any man to find a woman half his age. Nothing beats equal experience!!!

HGL

There are exsperiences superior to mine, among them marrying young, which I was denied.

I don't think there is any experience exactly equal to mine.

Chesterton said sth about marriage being a seesaw.

That does not come off as a bench where both are equal all the time.

So, how about quitting the preaching and letting me present some historic research I did?

BG

none of these people Chesterton, Aquinas.... etc would support of lowering the consent age today... none.
no, i'm not interested
the age of consent was ncessary
as the nation state arose
because legal framework replaced customs/ taboos
its still socially acceptable in parts of indonesia and even catholic philippines to a kind of marriage at 15
i would like to see even provincial girls educated
before committing
I don't think they should be subserient to a land owning gentry
I want them to be equal
and free to serve
the family
I totally 100% in favour of 18 for now
however if we have a huge plague
and a third of our population is wiped off
and most women do not even reach age 35
then I think it prudent to quicken their education
and empower teenagers to marry as young as 15
[thumbs up]
just like in the gospel as man spread --- he also multiplied upon many, taking many wives
each age must dictate what it necessary to be safe
and protect young immature girls from the prying and powerful

HGL

"none of these people Chesterton, Aquinas.... etc would support of lowering the consent age today... none."

That's your guess. As a "theologian" (i e believer dealing with clergy) I have dealt with people guessing if Jesus had lived today, He'd have supported female ordination, legal sodomy, heliocentrism and evolution (He was a child of his times, you know) ....

That is NOT how I do historic figures, I read what they wrote or said to those who wrote it down.

"no, i'm not interested"

Ah, a clear case of social-worker-itis!

[Note for others : the clinical tone is irony. Heresy and stubborn pride is not disease either of them in any clinical sense.]

Interested in presenting HIS facts, whether facts or not, but NOT interested in any facts which could disturb them.

"the age of consent was ncessary
as the nation state arose
because legal framework replaced customs/ taboo"

In St Thomas Aquinas' time the legal framwork had been in place since pre-Christian times.

Roman Empire introduced matrimonial consent limit at 14/12, accoridng to philophers, but while Pagan often flouted it. Church saw to it to start respecting it.

So if you imagine the 14/12 limit is tribal taboo, you are simply wrong.

And this was before some of the parts of Europe were as yet nation states.

"its still socially acceptable in parts of indonesia and even catholic philippines to a kind of marriage at 15"

In South Carolina, in 1995, it was acceptable for a 12 year old girl to marry an old man (I think she was n ot looking forward to too intensive sex) in order to get out of school, which otherwise would have kept her till 16.

Bill Clinton ended that liberty. So, you are taking Bill Clinton's side.

In Italy, it was in fact the "nation state" which introduced an 18/18 limit. Under Papal State legislation, as in Spain at least a few decades after fall of Papal States, the limit was .... you guessed it, I suppose : 14/12.

"i would like to see even provincial girls educated"

One priority one can share.

[Verbally, at least. He seems to consider school attendance as education.]

"before committing"

I suppose their parents did some educating before 12 or 15? Right?

You know, Chesterton fairly well DID say educating was mainly the parents' business, while school was more like there to give instruction on specific subjects.

"I don't think they should be subserient to a land owning gentry"

But, while not wanting village girls to be subservient to land owning gentry, you don't mind town or city girls closer home being subservient to teachers and to people like you?

"I want them to be equal
and free to serve
the family"

Parents, but not husband?

What if making grandchildren were a great favour to bestow on your parents?

"I totally 100% in favour of 18 for now"

In that case you are as extreme as Muslims. Know why?

Extreme ages for complete but still normal puberty are 9 and 18.

NORMAL range is between 11:th and 14:th birthday for 90% of girls, between 13:th and 16:th for 90% of boys.

"however if we have a huge plague
and a third of our population is wiped off
and most women do not even reach age 35
then I think it prudent to quicken their education
and empower teenagers to marry as young as 15"

May I remind you that St Thomas Aquinas lived a calendar century earlier than the plague?

The Black Death was ONE year of the middle ages, perhaps two, in most places.

[Earliest places it came : 1347, latest places taking a sigh of relief : 1349. St Thomas had died before 1277.]

It's like saying "as in the times of Noah" must mean very rainy weather, because the Deluge was surrounding his 600:dth birthday or came just after!

"just like in the gospel as man spread --- he also multiplied upon many, taking many wives
each age must dictate what it necessary to be safe
and protect young immature girls from the prying and powerful"

In my book, it's people like you who are prying and powerful.

As for "each age", that is the baloney of developing morals.

Chesterton once mentioned, if a chessboard has no fixed colours of the squares, it's not just that black squares can be painted white, it's also that white squares can be painted black.

Marriage at puberty used to be a white square (unless the puberty was precocious like at 9). You are a perfect example of what Chesterton warned against, and the fact is, you are helping to paint a square that used to be black, namely murder of the unborn, at least a few shades lighter grey than before.

Oh, nearly missed this one:

"and protect young immature girls from the prying and powerful"

YOU say they are immature. Are they always agreeing? If so, how many of them are doing so to escape your extortion like powers as social worker? If not, how do you relate to a thirteen year old girl, pregnant, who, very properly, thinks she should raise her child with its father?

Do you tell her "she's not mature"?

HGL (adding after silence)

Telling her that is not very helpful either to her or to her child, you know.

[Next I notified him, and time limit is valid for dialogue up to here.]

BG

you lost me, when comparing support for abortion with lowering the consent age. again i am not interested in your personal project of lowering the consent age. Good bye

HGL

Feel free to leave debate, and to leave me with these final words:

a woman who is pregnant naturally wants to keep and raise her child, abortion is only chosen due to trauma (especially in young and so far healthy girls) and one kind of trauma is precisely that of being told one is too young to keep and raise the child.

HENCE, whether you want it to or not, whether you are even aware of it or not, you are indirectly supporting the abortion.

[written, but when trying to send:]

FB mail

Cette personne ne reçoit actuellement pas de messages de votre part.

Update on facts:

Russia went bad before Revolution.

Imperial laws were very particular with the age in which serfs could marry. The minimum age to marry was 13 years old for females, and 15 for males. After 1830 the female and male ages were raised to 16 and 18 respectively. To marry over the age of 60, the serf had to receive permission, but marriage over the age of 80 was forbidden. The Church also did not approve marriages with large age differences.

Avdeev, Blum, Troitskaia, Juby, "Peasant Marriage", 731–33.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom_in_Russia

The modern craze about stigmatising as "pedophilia" anything below 18 is clearly an example of Russia spreading its errors through the world.

What did "Father" Rosica say?

// That means that Catholic media should “listen,” rather than merely “hear,” as it engages in dialogue.

It also means that church media should communicate with everyone, without exception.

It further means that “Christians ought to be a constant encouragement to communion and, even in those cases where they must firmly condemn evil, they should never try to rupture relationships and communication.” //

Not quite the behaviour of BG. Not that I blame him totally, as he lacks arguments.

Father Zuhlsdorf could also be heard.

He quotes a certain Richard Cohen of Washington Post.

Fr. Z's Blog : WaPo bigot attacks Rick Santorum’s Catholicism
Posted on 28 February 2012 by Fr. John Zuhlsdorf
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2012/02/wapo-bigot-attacks-rick-santorums-catholicism/

The citation is interspersed with Father Z’s comments :

Richard Cohen on WaPo

Mullah Rick has spoken.

He wants religion returned to “the public square,” is opposed to contraception, premarital sex and abortion under any circumstances, wants children educated in what amounts to little red schoolhouses and called President Obama a “snob” for extolling college or some other kind of post-high school education. This is not a political platform. It’s a fatwa.

Father Z interspersing in square brackets and red :

[Liberals control the education system, of course.  It is a chief method of indoctrination.  Liberals want to make sure that all kids are under their aegis for as long as possible.  That way they can suck kid’s brains out and pump their skulls full their lefty … detritus.]

My comment :

BG seems closer to Richard Cohen than to Father Zuhlsdorf.

H/T to Dymphna

For sending me off to read Father Z.

Dymphna's Road : Looks like the Main Stream Media is having a little anti Catholic moment
Wednesday, February 29, 2012 : Posted by Dymphna at 8:12 PM
http://dymphnaroad.blogspot.fr/2012/02/looks-like-main-stream-media-is-having.html

Sorry for

Links temporarily not working, if that be the case. A library in Paris has arranged for its computers to show a hyphen instead of equals sign. Will try to fix as soon as getting to an internet café, meanwhile, copy paste links and put in adress bars.