With Habermehl 2017, I

With Habermehl 2017, I · With Habermehl 2017, II

I

Me to Habermehl

"On 1/25/2017 9:08"

Neanderthals and Tower of Babel

Neanderthals, first:

1.) I think Flood year organic things date to c. 55,000 to 30,000 BP.

Anything thought to be "Flood" fossil but say 22,000 BP is post-Flood, including dinos.

This would mean that La Ferrassie II is a pre-Flood remnant. Her dates are "68-74 k-years BP".

2.) Genetic "non-humanity" of Neanderthals concerns Y-chromosome and mitochondrial.

I think the pre-Flood Neanderthals are related to us by one woman whose father was Neanderthal but whose mother was Sethite or Cainite, probably Sethite (I consider that Japheth married a Neanderthal or half Neanderthal who was so by her father only, thus missing out on mitochrondrial, but whose brothers if any drowned, thus missing out on the Y too; while Ham married a Cainite).*

3.) That would mean that Homo erectus if human was probably also pre-Flood. I would say, yes, human.

Shinar and Tower of Babel:

Shinar would probably mean Mesopotamia, any piece of land between two rivers Euphrates and Tigris.

Parts of Eastern Turkey are geographically included.

I tentatively identify Tower of Babel with Göbekli Tepe, and consider that Urfa/Edessa close by was the Ur of the Chaldees.

This means that T o B was c. 11,000 BP / 9000 BC as to carbon dates, which mean late Palaeolithic is between Flood and Babel.

Glad to hear** you are not inimical to LXX, since this fits better with a LXX timeline.

Hans Georg Lundahl
Nanterre University Library
St Paul's Conversion
25.I.2017

* You might enjoy : Creation vs. Evolution : Damien Mackey & The Flood
http://creavsevolu.blogspot.com/2017/01/damien-mackey-flood.html

** Or rather read, here : Anne Habermehl: Let Creationists Think!
http://www.youngearth.org/index.php/safaris/icalrepeat.detail/2014/12/12/28/-/anne-habermehl-let-creationists-think

II

Habermehl to me

1/26/2017 at 5:28 PM

Re: Neanderthals and Tower of Babel

Hi, Hans-Georg!

It's nice to hear from you. I am always glad to hear that someone is reading my papers and thinking about them!

Neanderthals:

1. My first point is that there are two timelines.There is the biblical timeline that goes back to Creation about 7500 years ago maximum (the Septuagint gives this date). This puts the Flood about 3300 years ago, maximum. Then there is the evolutionary timeline that goes back to the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago. They don't have a date for the Flood because their ice ages start about 4600 million years ago. (The Flood was before the Ice Age that creationists recognize.) This means that 55,000 years ago is a secular timeline date, and lies within the Ice Age.

I believe that all fossils believed to be Flood fossils are post-Flood, and date in the Ice Age. Re Neanderthals: all Neanderthal fossils that we have all have to be post Flood.

2. As you know from my paper, I believe that Jack Cuozzo has scientifically proven that the Neanderthals were the long-lived ancient people of the Bible. All the earliest post-Flood people were Neanderthals. They died out because people no longer lived long enough to develop Neanderthal characteristics. The more recent sequencing of the genome actually supports Cuozzo on this. I also am skeptical that DNA has survived the years well enough to be sure of the sequencing results because DNA deteriorates rapidly in a fairly small number of years.. Their tests give them answers, sure -- but we have no control sample for comparison, and we have no idea how close modern geneticists are to the real Neanderthal DNA. I consider it possible that their DNA results are largely an illusion.

3. Homo Erectus have to be superior early extinct apes. They show monkey characteristics. Cuozzo shows this.

Shinar/Tower of Babel:

On the biblical timeline, the Tower of Babel had to have been built long, long before the end of the Ice Age, which is when Gobekli Tepe was built. Besides, there is no resemblance to a tower at GT.

LXX: Yes, I am very friendly to the LXX! Jesus and the early church used it. I believe that history shows that the MT was produced shortly after the time of Christ by Jews who hated the Christians and hated their scripture, the LXX.

Have you read my papers on the Neanderthals, Tower of Babel and Ice Age? They are on my web site: www.creationsixdays.net. Or google up my name and those words. The papers are online.

Best wishes! Thanks for writing!

Anne Habermehl

III

Me to Habermehl

1/27/2017 at 11:19 AM

Re: Neanderthals and Tower of Babel

Neanderthals:

"1. My first point is that there are two timelines."

Correct. Or rather, three. Biblical, carbon dated and evolutionist.

A certain dinosaur would be Flood or perhaps post-Flood (in the case I think of post-Flood) for Biblical.

It would be 22,000 before present carbon dated.

It would be at least 65 million years before present per evolutionist time line, the one based on biostratigraphy, since dinosaurs are in this model dated as "triassic, jurassic or cretaceous", which three divisions of evolutionary time are currently dated to 252 to 65 million years ago.

"There is the biblical timeline that goes back to Creation about 7500 years ago maximum (the Septuagint gives this date). This puts the Flood about 3300 years ago, maximum."

Two liturgically used timelines agree in setting Flood at anno mundi 2242, the Roman and the Byzantine martyrologies. They disagree on Creation BC and Flood BC.

Roman : Christ was born 5199 after the Beginning in which God created Heaven and Earth, 2957 BC. That is, btw, about 5000 years ago.
Byzantine : Creation given as 5508 BC, which puts Flood in 3266 BC (same LXX timeline between Creation and Flood as Roman).

"Then there is the evolutionary timeline that goes back to the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago."

More than one of them, which the evolutionists try to harmonise (inter alia by suppressing genuine carbon dates and crying "fraud" when Creationists submit dinosaurs to carbon dating and get results).

The one I think merits a little more consideration than the rest is the carbon one.

Biostratigraphy is based on the diverse faunas being results of diverse stages of evolution, I think they were rather diverse immediately pre-Flood (usually) biotopes.

The 13.8 billion years are based on distant starlight problem where some stars are supposed to be "proven" 13.8 billion LIGHT years from us, which by a constant speed of light gives 13.8 billion YEARS since these emitted the light we see now.

I think the distances are spurious and all "stars" (they used to be called "fix stars") in a shell one light day above us.

That way there is no distant starlight problem. And this I base on the first and closest distances "known" to stars being based on the spurious parallax measures, which I consider spurious not just because "it's a very skinny triangle" (as Kent Hovind said) but also because I am a geocentric and believe the "parallactic" and "aberrational" movements of stars are really proper movements, made by dancing angels.

"They don't have a date for the Flood because their ice ages start about 4600 million years ago. (The Flood was before the Ice Age that creationists recognize.) This means that 55,000 years ago is a secular timeline date, and lies within the Ice Age."

Wait a minute. You are treating secular datings as one unit. They are not. 4600 million years is not carbon dated. 55,000 years usually is carbon dated.

If they identified an organic trace of "first ice age" 4600 million years ago, it could probably be carbon dated to very much less than that, either to Flood or to post-Flood ice age.

"I believe that all fossils believed to be Flood fossils are post-Flood, and date in the Ice Age."

If so, what exact traces did the Flood leave?

If so, why is there an Ice Age and post-Flood sea shore in what is now the Alps? It makes much more sense to say the seashore is a pre-Flood one.

Why does there have to be a seashore at all in the Alps? Because a fossil whale was found in Linz, the city where Hitler spent his youth, and a fossil seal was found in Nussdorf, a vineyard area outside Vienna.

These seals and whales are obviously, as being mammals and as not found together with any dinos, dated as Tertiary. I believe they are immediately pre-Flood, and if a splinter of bone were carbon dated, it would show the typical dates for Flood fossils. Which contradict the evolutionary timeline much more than the Biblical "common" one.

"Re Neanderthals: all Neanderthal fossils that we have all have to be post Flood."

I respectfully disagree. Between Mousterian and Aurignacian or Aurignacian and Gravettian there is a shift in the population of Europe. Before, Neanderthals dominate, if not to exclusion to Cro-Magnon. After, the genetics basically match those of the Europeans up to now.

With a Flood between the population types, there is no problem with the population shift.

Carbon dates seem to set the carbon dated timeline for the shift around 37,000 BP.

This matches the carbon dates for most fossils believed to be from Flood, though not the one I just talked about as dated 22,000 BP.

"2. As you know from my paper, I believe that Jack Cuozzo has scientifically proven that the Neanderthals were the long-lived ancient people of the Bible."

One little disagreement. The word "the". I think his proof they were long lived is probably right, and that skeleta now considered as belonging to people who died in their thirties or forties may belong to people who either lived up to 950 or 1000 (as the Sethite line) or to 500 (as many early post-Flood) or to above hundred.

This does not mean all pre-Flood long livers had the genetics of Neanderthals or even the general shape of Neanderthals. Cuozzo has proven that Neanderthals were some post- or pre-Flood men, living long, not that they were all of them.

"All the earliest post-Flood people were Neanderthals. They died out because people no longer lived long enough to develop Neanderthal characteristics. The more recent sequencing of the genome actually supports Cuozzo on this."

The recent sequencing indeed confirms they were human, and that some people today (notably Europeans) have more Neanderthal genes than others, but as per last time I checked, also mitochondrial DNA not found in our post-Flood population, which however does seem to have mitochondrial DNA from three daughters in law of Noah, whereas they also lack certain characteristics of our Y-chromosomes.

Hence my idea that the Neanderthal DNA we do have in Europe came via either a man marrying a Sethite woman and his daughter marrying Japheth, or else the connection would be a Neanderthal woman married a Sethite man, her son had a daughter who married Japheth.

"I also am skeptical that DNA has survived the years well enough to be sure of the sequencing results because DNA deteriorates rapidly in a fairly small number of years.."

Svante Pääbo has thought of that. Even though the fool has said in his heart what SP says openly, that there is no God, doesn't mean he must be a fool in his own job.

I think deterioration of a certain mitochondrial or Y-chromosome genome is random, and that the mitochondrial and Y-Chromosome differences he did publish are the systematic ones, when random deterioration has been discounted from the material.

[In general terms of base pairs : deterioration of a base will not yield a different base so gene is read like a different gene.]

"Their tests give them answers, sure -- but we have no control sample for comparison, and we have no idea how close modern geneticists are to the real Neanderthal DNA."

Overall, no. As far as I can see, there is a Neanderthal genome accessible in fragments, but not a complete map.

However, this could be just suspicion, and they could have a fairly complete map. But identifying mitochondrial and Y-chromosomewise differences does not take a complete map.

"I consider it possible that their DNA results are largely an illusion."

Not sufficiently to make me say all post-Flood men were Neanderthals, as if the characteristics were just a matter of gene expression and not of genes.

"3. Homo Erectus have to be superior early extinct apes. They show monkey characteristics. Cuozzo shows this."

Which ones of them?

Certainly not the Homo Heidelbergensis or Homo Antecessor ones. As to Peking man or Java man, they could have been diseased.

Shinar/Tower of Babel:

"On the biblical timeline, the Tower of Babel had to have been built long, long before the end of the Ice Age, which is when Gobekli Tepe was built."

Why exactly? Because ice age men have a geographical spread which you identify with post-Babel scattering?

Just pre-Babel men were wandering, when they came to Shinar, they had arguably just been over to India.

This means the ice age geographical spread can be a pre-Babel trace of wandering and of expeditions (and in Biblical Hebrew, an expedition would probably have been described as "wandering", especially if engaged in geographic exploration, looking for copper and tin mines, perhaps also for Uranium : see my next).

"Besides, there is no resemblance to a tower at GT."

I wonder if the tower would have looked very much as a tower previous to a few days before take off.

In our days, at Cape Canaveral, take-offs imply that what looks like a tower is placed on the launching ramp. Now, of this tower, lowest first and second steps are dropped and only third step goes into space.

Re-read the verse. It does not say "a tower so high that its top reaches heaven", it says "a tower, whereof the top may reach heaven".

GT has been compared to a launching ramp, perhaps it was in a video by Trey Smith that I heard the comparison.

I think Nimrod planned to make a rocket, fuelled by Uranium and of making it in baked bricks. Let's be happy he failed before even trying a take off, if so!

LXX: "Yes, I am very friendly to the LXX! Jesus and the early church used it. I believe that history shows that the MT was produced shortly after the time of Christ by Jews who hated the Christians and hated their scripture, the LXX."

I agree. I think the timeline of Masoretic and even pre-Vulgate Hebrew texts was taken over from erroneous Samaritan version, in part. Which version had been produced in hatred of Judah, by Samarians.

"Have you read my papers on the Neanderthals, Tower of Babel and Ice Age?"

I think I read all three, if not, it is Ice Age which is missing. But I read them on Answers in Genesis.

"They are on my web site: www.creationsixdays.net. Or google up my name and those words. The papers are online."

Thank you, I'll check if I missed your work on the Ice Age.

Hans Georg Lundahl

III bis

Me to Habermehl again

1/27/2017 at 12:20 PM

Papers + Ancient Instruments

The pdfs on Answers in Genesis do not open in this University library.

They have been blocked "par une stratégie de groupe". Not sure if blocked key word is pdf or answersingenesis, but either is possible.

The one essay which is in a html page on your own site can be viewed, however.

I think it was a mistake to keep both timelines chronological.

The evolutionary timeline involving Huronian and things certainly needs to be reconsidered as geographical spread rather than chronological timeline./HGL

IV

Skipping forward to later

with another title, I am reading some on Göbekli Tepe, by me first of them at XIV.

V

Me to Habermehl

1/27/2017 at 5:49 PM

dating music

Φιλολoγικά/Philologica : Where my dating of music differs from Habermehl's
http://filolohika.blogspot.com/2017/01/where-my-dating-of-music-differs-from.html

VI

Habermehl to me

1/27/2017 at 9:26 PM

Re: Neanderthals and Tower of Babel

You right -- three. The in-house fight between the secular scholars and carbon-date enthusiasts goes on! I point out that the carbon dating timeline is not absolute, because it is based on the number of carbon 14 molecules counted. This still has to be correlated to a carbon date.

Carbon dating is not reasonably useful for more than about 5,000 years back. After that, the percentage of inaccuracy gets very large. Sure, you can get carbon date numbers for just about anything back to about 50,000 years, but those numbers don't mean much. The dates back further than that are basically figures made up by evolutionists to make their timeline work.

So what traces did the Flood actually leave? Essentially none on the surface of the earth. Just about everything claimed to be from the Flood is from post-Flood events. It is not understood just how major the Ice Age was, and what happened when the ice melted. All shorelines on earth today have to be post Flood. One in Iraq has to be post Flood, but it is pre Ice Age. This I show in my Tower of Babel paper, with calculations. If all the ice on earth today melted, it would put the seashore at the level of that ancient shoreline.

Yes, I most certainly do equate human scattering around the earth with the Babel dispersion. That's because I believe what the Bible says about it. I take Genesis 6 literally. It clearly says that all the men stayed together (and the Tower was intended to keep them together) until God came down and scattered them. There is some discussion as to whether the Ice Age had started to come on gradually before the Babel scattering or not. However, that does not affect the argument. Where exactly the descendants of Noah went between leaving the Ark and setting up in Shinar I cannot say. That is pure speculation. But I consider it strange to say that they went as far as India. In any case, by the time the Ice Age really developed, clearly the Babel dispersion had taken place.

Mind you, wherever men went, they built ziggurats. I've written an unpublished paper on this. I would actually look for a ziggurat somewhere in the area of Gobekli Tepe, but probably not right at the GT site. Anyway, they have done remote sensing, and although there are more rings of stones under the ground, they haven't found any kind of construction like a ziggurat so far. I have been to GT, and I assure you that the notion of its being a launching ramp is ludicrous. (And I know Trey Smith, who is a friend of mine, and who calls me to consult on his videos. Too bad that he did that one before we met! I would have set him straight.)

Anne

VII bis

Habermehl to me

1/27/2017 at 9:31 PM

Re: Papers + Ancient Instruments

Hi!

I got permission from the society to put my ICC papers online (it is not an Answers in Genesis paper). The one on the Ice Age is here: 2013 ICC, Habermehl, Ancient Egypt
http://www.creationsixdays.net/2013_ICC_Habermehl_AncientEgypt.pdf

I don't understand what you mean about the secular ice ages not being chronological.Those scholars most certainly think that they are. And it's their timeline. They get to say this!
Anne

VIII

Me to Habermehl

1/28/2017 at 3:24 PM

Re: Papers + Ancient Instruments

It is their timeline in their fantasy, but a succession of ice ages is not really born out by the evidence, as far as Creationists are concerned.

This means that we must ask what the timelines are built on. Human population arriving after Ice Age and carbon datable, fine. We just have to adjust the carbon table. Correlation with a certain period dated only by speculation on when the fauna developed or so - which is the case with Huronian - we are free to consider their "chronology" as synchronic rather than diachronic, as geographic rather than chronological.

The latter is the case with Huronian glaciation. It is identified as "after atmosphere was mostly methane" (sth which was not the case any period) or as having only bacterial fauna. So, some methane was around during Flood and some places were only inhabited by bacteria.

Hans Georg Lundahl

PS, nearly forgot to thank for the look at your paper. Wonderful. If I don't reply at once to the other letter, I am studying that one./HGL

VIII bis

Me to Habermehl

1/28/2017 at 5:27 PM

Re: Neanderthals and Tower of Babel

" It clearly says that all the men stayed together "

Does it?

[1] And the earth was of one tongue, and of the same speech. [2] And when they removed from the east, they found a plain in the land of Sennaar, and dwelt in it. [3] And each one said to his neighbour: Come, let us make brick, and bake them with fire. And they had brick instead of stones, and slime instead of mortar. [4] And they said: Come, let us make a city and a tower, the top whereof may reach to heaven: and let us make our name famous before we be scattered abroad into all lands. [5] And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of Adam were building.

Could not a few expeditions of Solutrean culture and Gomeric descent in France have been part of the agreement while not actually staying close to the building of Edessa?

Could not a few expeditions to Jericho and other places (somewhat later) have been providing wheat for the builders at Babel?

Even so, the men (except the just patriarchs in the line from Noah to Abraham) would have been part of the same people (all obeying the same laws, those of Nimrod), and of the same tongue (Hebrew like the patriarchs, until when the patriarchs were the only ones left with it, as reward for refusing to build), and parts of very same agreement?

If GT was ToB, it took 45 years of continuous effort - on my view directed at preparing a launching ramp, as revealed also in Isaiah, where Satan as "King of Babylon" is not just the one inspiring the then present king but also the former king of Sinear, Nimrod, and inspiring his ambition of space voyage to Empyrean Heaven (which he probably considered closer than beyond one light day away).

A man may walk GT to some place in France more than once back and forth in 45 years. Let's check the km.

The distance between Sanliurfa and Les Eyzies de Tayac-Sireuil is given as 4,125.2 km. Add 18 between Sanliurfa and GT.

4143 km.

Let's say one can easily walk 15 km a day, that is 276 and a third days marches. Less than a year.

In absence of borders and of linguistic barriers, that would not daunt the Babel builders, if expeditions were thought of as useful.

Remember too, I consider the Neanderthal spread as a pre-Flood one.

Remember furthermore that the expeditions would be a smaller part of the population, most of which kept together and walked together.

And that corresponds for finds from latter half of Upper Palaeolithic.

When the Gomerites AT Babel (close to GT, there are still some, since Kappadocians are Gomerites too) were unable to understand the rest there, they went out to join their few relatives already in France, and to start agriculture there, and as they had counted on understanding each other, but not the rest, they had come to the same new language (or in their erroneous view perhaps retained the same old one) as the Gomerites already in France.

So, shift of population "37,000 BC" = Flood. Spread of agriculture to diverse areas of Europe (Gomerites for France) = post-Babel actual scattering.

[8] And so the Lord scattered them from that place into all lands, and they ceased to build the city. [9] And therefore the name thereof was called Babel, because there the language of the whole earth was confounded: and from thence the Lord scattered them abroad upon the face of all countries.

Of course, the stone age populations in France are more scattered than those after neolithic. But on my view, that earlier scattering would have been exceptional.

And in some cases, the post-Flood Palaeolithic finds would not be about scattering, but about people left behind when they all walked together.

Les Eyzies de Tayac is large enough to have accomodated a population of perhaps 80 years after the Flood.

This means, the men found there need not have been part of the scattering, they can have been part of the roaming.

Hans Georg Lundahl

IX

Habermehl to me

1/28/2017 at 8:08 PM

Re: Neanderthals and Tower of Babel

I do not speculate in order to support pet theories. According to the Bible, there was no dispersion of any kind before the Babel dispersion. And the Tower of Babel was built in Northern Mesopotamia, because the south was under water at that time.

Because the Flood destroyed everything, the Neanderthal fossils that we have are all post Flood.

We do not agree on these things.

Anne

X

Me to Habermehl

1/29/2017 at 11:22 PM

Re: Neanderthals and Tower of Babel

" According to the Bible, there was no dispersion of any kind before the Babel dispersion."

Proof text?

Plus prove Upper Palaeolithic was a dispersion rather than a walking together?

" And the Tower of Babel was built in Northern Mesopotamia, because the south was under water at that time. "

Edessa and Göbekli Tepe are as far North as you can get in Mesopotamia without getting up into the mountains. Since it is East of Euphrates, it is Mesopotamia.

" Because the Flood destroyed everything, the Neanderthal fossils that we have are all post Flood."

Exact verse?/HGL

XI

Habermehl to me

1/30/2017 at 12:00 AM

Re: Neanderthals and Tower of Babel

The Bible clearly says that all the people were together at Shinar.

Yes, of course! I have difficulty remembering that you think that GT is the Tower of Babel because it is such a really weird idea.

The Bible says that the Flood destroyed everything. Everything.

Anne

XII

Me to Habermehl

1/30/2017 at 9:43 AM

Re: Neanderthals and Tower of Babel

• 1) I don't think per se GT was or is the Tower of Babel.
  
  I think it was meant for the LAUNCHING ramp of the Tower of Babel. GT is like Cape Canaveral. ToB like Apollo 11.
  
  Difference one :
  
  at Cape Canaveral, the fuel was not an atomic bomb.
  
  God could let it happen without having all or most of mankind destroyed by another atomic explosion (I think the Mahabharata records such in pre-Flood Nodian wars).
  
  Difference two :
  
  at Cape Canaveral, it could be brought about without involving a totalitarian all man kind solidarity of collaboration.
  
  God could let it happen without immediately letting Nimrod come off as a huge success.
  
  " The Bible clearly says that all the people were together at Shinar."
  
  Not all the time from Flood to project.
  
  But what about the time itself:
  
  [1] And the earth was of one tongue, and of the same speech. [2] And when they removed from the east, they found a plain in the land of Sennaar, and dwelt in it. [3] And each one said to his neighbour: Come, let us make brick, and bake them with fire. And they had brick instead of stones, and slime instead of mortar. [4] And they said: Come, let us make a city and a tower, the top whereof may reach to heaven: and let us make our name famous before we be scattered abroad into all lands. [5] And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of Adam were building. [6] And he said: Behold, it is one people, and all have one tongue: and they have begun to do this, neither will they leave off from their designs, till they accomplish them in deed.
  
  They were one people (except the Hebrews who opted out).
  
  They moved from the East. Is there any late Upper Palaeolithic finds in Persia or India or Afghanistan which could be where they were before they came to Shinar?
  
  They - it would seem - all dwelt in the plain. Does not mean there were no other sites than the great city they were building and does not mean there were no expeditions elsewhere.
  
  They clearly thought they were going to or risked being scattered in all lands. Were they thinking of older relatives during upper palaeolithic? Perhaps they thought they were all dead, but were wrong.
  
  It could be that the oikoumene was in Shinar while various barbarians were in fact scattered - more or less, on and off.
  
  The result of the confusion of tongues was a scattering of the oikoumene itself, into civilisation which had not heard of each other, and permanently. We are still scattered in this sense.
  
  I admit that the text as such seems to suggest a skyscraper or a skyline more than a rocket for the tower. But if so, why would God say "now nothing will be impossible for them", since we know that building a skyscraper "into heaven" is impossible. Sending up rockets, of which step one and two do not get into space, but step three does, that is possible.
  
  After Babel there was a technology loss, which you will admit yourself, if you think agriculture was temporarily lost after Babel rather than recovered after temporary disruption before it, and so the Bible expresses the thing in ways which would not trigger the curiosity of rocketry.
  
  
• 2) The Bible really does not say that nothing even left traces, like bones. LXX kataphtheiro is used of destroying armies, among other things. A destroyed army is sth other than a vanished army. A vanished army can be vanished without trace, and then reappear. A destroyed army stays visibly destroyed, at least for a time.
  
  You may be thinking of II Peter 3 ...
  
  [3] Knowing this first, that in the last days there shall come deceitful scoffers, walking after their own lusts, [4] Saying: Where is his promise or his coming? for since the time that the fathers slept, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
  
  They have a Jewish sense of humour, they don't believe either return of Christ nor even advent of another Messiah, they continue the Sabbath as if Calvary and Resurrection of Our Lord had not changed the world even more drastically than the Flood.
  
  [5] For this they are wilfully ignorant of, that the heavens were before, and the earth out of water, and through water, consisting by the word of God.
  
  The sky must have been different.
  
  [6] Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished.
  
  The world perished. It does not say that every single thing in it did. Unless you say the Ark was a TARDIS or a wardrobe, and the pre-Flood world was a universe destroyed like the world of Charn (which by the way has some similarity to pre-Flood Nod).
  
  But that would hardly fit the fact that four rivers from before the Flood were partially preserved after it.
  
  I do not take Frat and Hiddekel as identical from source to Persian Gulf with Euphrates and Tigris. These two don't come from a same other single river.
  
  But they are preserved in Euphrates and Tigris, and that means at least part of the riverbeds must be the same.

Hans Georg